Reissues project

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Greendrake
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Re: Reissues project

#1111 Post by Greendrake »

loader wrote:
Wed 21 Jun 2017, 6:37 am
The source material requirements for vinyl mastering are different than for digital formats... Hence the vinyl version will sound different (as opposed to subjectively "better") to the digital remaster.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that digital remastering work produces one common "ancestor" source for all formats (in the form of computer files in some sort of hi-end format), although further mastering is done separately for CD and vinyl. Thus, both formats are just different renderings of the same digital remaster, which remains unavailable to us.

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oakey
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Re: Reissues project

#1112 Post by oakey »

The master for a vinyl record is an analogue one, for CD etc a digital master is used.
Obviously the source materials (ie the studio recording and mix) are the same, but the master is very different. For analogue masters, some artificial enhancements have to be made to cope with the distortions vinyl produces to reproduce the studio sound as much as possible (which is the 'warmer' sound often attributed to vinyl, but basically the result if this tweaking, ie not what the studio recording was meant to sound like). Being an analogue version of a digital recording, the end result is always inferior - as in not fully reproducing the record as it was intended to sound in the studio (apart from the cracks and surface noise that one also gets with vinyl).
Last edited by oakey on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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seriously
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Re: Reissues project

#1113 Post by seriously »

tottenhammattspurs wrote:
Mon 19 Jun 2017, 3:52 pm
I don't buy into all this "remastered vinyl" claptrap. You're basically paying £25 for a large black CD
Vinyl was first. CDs are just small, silver records.
RadioPunchBoil: The Future is 1982

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Zog
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Re: Reissues project

#1114 Post by Zog »

Greendrake wrote:
Wed 21 Jun 2017, 10:43 am
loader wrote:
Wed 21 Jun 2017, 6:37 am
The source material requirements for vinyl mastering are different than for digital formats... Hence the vinyl version will sound different (as opposed to subjectively "better") to the digital remaster.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that digital remastering work produces one common "ancestor" source for all formats (in the form of computer files in some sort of hi-end format), although further mastering is done separately for CD and vinyl. Thus, both formats are just different renderings of the same digital remaster, which remains unavailable to us.
As far as I know, that's not quite true. It has to do with the physical "cutting" of the actual (physical) master.

- The physical master is then used to make a reverse "template", which in turn is used to "press" the end-product vinyl (that we buy).

BUT, vinyl needs slightly different source masters. In particular, the cutting process reduces the treble, and highs. So they need to be mixed slightly differently (and compressed more, if they are classical) Also, almost all bass below around 50 cycles/sec needs to be mixed down to MONO. Although it varies depending on the speed/time length of the vinyl sides.

For example, if you remember some early CD's having what was called "Digital Glare", that was because the record companies initially made the CDs from analog (and/or digital) masters that had been "pre-compensated, with higher treble, so they'd sound normal on vinyl. This pre-compensation, had been done for decades, and many of the microphones, and similar equipment had always been set up this way.

However, the manufacturing of smaller quantities of high quality vinyl (particularly 12"/45rpm DJ vinyl), almost certainly requires far less pre-compensation. But generally speaking, there still should be some minor adjustments made. However, this may not always be needed as much today, because of highly compressed nature of electronic music. But, if you notice that some vinyl sounds a little "mellower", it is precisely because of this. In fact, that slightly "mellow" sound can be (if you wish) precisely duplicated on a direct (full) digital file.

(BTW, the term "acetate" is often misused today. It is supposed to refer to very small quantities of "vinyl" that could be produced quickly. But the so-called "acetate" disc, should not have anything like the longevity of regular vinyl. So anyone who has a real "acetate" actually has a disc that will not last for anything like the number of plays compared to a the "regular vinyl". I dunno why the word is so misused today)


If you're wondering where I get this trivia from... it's because I worked in a classical record store/shop for 5 years in the mid to late '80s. I got this info from several people who (at the time) worked for EMI, DG, Telarc, and a number of other major labels.

Anyway, if your eyes glazed over from a typical "Zog Ramble"... there's a minute of your life you're never getting back. Your welcome ;)

-Zog
New Stuff
*** “Back-Track” - Retro Funk Mix (MAS 2018)
https://soundcloud.com/martin-ashwoodsm ... k-mix-2018
*** “Cydonia” - Techno Mix (MAS 2018)
https://soundcloud.com/martin-ashwoodsm ... x-mas-2018

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Ramzy
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Re: Reissues project

#1115 Post by Ramzy »

You're both right, but Zog, you've missed out all the things that happen to the CD before it's pressed: often a higher level of analogue compression ("brickwalling", where the dynamic range is reduced to make the record sound louder all the way through) and digital compression (low-pass filtering so the file fits into a 44.1kHz, 16-bit format). While it's hard to demonstrate the effects of the latter, some people say the filtering itself is imperfect and can turn the inaudible frequencies it's meant to eliminate into audible noise. Then there's the fact you're listening to the results of a digital-to-analogue converter inside your CD player instead of the weapons-grade setup they'll use to do the same job ahead of mastering the LP. So in theory you ought to hear a better, more high-resolution and more dynamic rendering of the digital file on a well-pressed vinyl record. Obviously that in turn depends on your setup - but basically what I'm saying is, yes, vinyl colours the sound, but so do CDs, especially the way they are mastered nowadays (louder).
I must disengage your recreational music.

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Zog
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Re: Reissues project

#1116 Post by Zog »

Ramzy wrote:
Thu 22 Jun 2017, 7:46 am
You're both right, but Zog, you've missed out all the things that happen to the CD before it's pressed: often a higher level of analogue compression ("brickwalling", where the dynamic range is reduced to make the record sound louder all the way through) and digital compression (low-pass filtering so the file fits into a 44.1kHz, 16-bit format). While it's hard to demonstrate the effects of the latter, some people say the filtering itself is imperfect and can turn the inaudible frequencies it's meant to eliminate into audible noise. Then there's the fact you're listening to the results of a digital-to-analogue converter inside your CD player instead of the weapons-grade setup they'll use to do the same job ahead of mastering the LP. So in theory you ought to hear a better, more high-resolution and more dynamic rendering of the digital file on a well-pressed vinyl record. Obviously that in turn depends on your setup - but basically what I'm saying is, yes, vinyl colours the sound, but so do CDs, especially the way they are mastered nowadays (louder).

I'm not denying that. But I did say "digital audio files" (as well as CDs). For example, many larger companies in the era just before CDs, started recording digitally: notably DG and Columbia. But, one of the major issues the recording engineers faced was that most of the previous studio set ups (including the microphones) had been made and adjusted for vinyl pressing. Thus the actual masters were not always well-suited for conversation into digital audio (no matter what the sampling rate).

Yes, of course digital recording masters when released on CD, will usually be remastered. However, it is in the classical music field that (typically) does NOT need any compression, because the available dynamic range (at a low level of distortion) of a CD was larger than vinyl.

Ideally classical music should need no compression, whereas it needed some compression for vinyl (sometimes quite a lot). However, modern electronic/techno/pop music is highly compressed. But that's not a bad thing, since modern popular music (especially house/techno) is meant to be very highly compressed.

The best way to make an accurate pure analog vinyl record, is the direct-to-vinyl technique. Some specialist recording labels still use this, but it's probably more often found in the jazz and "classical" genres. (I think one or two major labels did this too, but the vinyl was bloody expensive:)

If you're talking about the actual analog to digital conversation at the studio level, and the subsequent conversation from the digital master into a CD master... well that is a different issue. Times have changed, so yes, there could easily be one digital master, and two separate (sub) masters used for CDs/audio files and vinyl.

-Zog
New Stuff
*** “Back-Track” - Retro Funk Mix (MAS 2018)
https://soundcloud.com/martin-ashwoodsm ... k-mix-2018
*** “Cydonia” - Techno Mix (MAS 2018)
https://soundcloud.com/martin-ashwoodsm ... x-mas-2018

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jamie1978
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Re: Reissues project

#1117 Post by jamie1978 »

whats the difference between vinyl and CD?

Let me tell you. I have the full catalogue of all PSB albums on original vinyl in mint condition, including special editions

the difference between them, and the CD versions, is a very slight occasional crackle when you play the vinyl versions...i honestly cannot hear the difference otherwise, if you blindfolded me only the odd vinyl crackle gives it away

but vinyl is beautiful, and collectable, and valuable, and CD's are ghastly

BlackPanther
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Re: Reissues project

#1118 Post by BlackPanther »

Brickwalling is format independent. You make it look like it's a requirement of the CD format to apply this kind of compression. CDs in the 1980s weren't brickwalled, it's a choice that artists and/or labels make, and, they may (and often will) use the same brickwalled master as a starting point for the vinyl release as well.

"Listening to the results of the DA converter inside your CD-player"? How about "listening to the results of the combined capabilities of your sound system"?

Even the cheapest DA converters available deliver a sound quality which outperforms whatever your amplifier, speakers and cables are capable of reproducing. And this applies to playing vinyl the same as it does to playing CDs. The resulting quality of what you hear is mostly the determined by the crappiest component in your setup, and that's very unlikely to be the DA converter in your CD player.

It's just simple physics: vinyl is unable to reproduce the same sound quality as the CD standard because of the physical limitations of the LP, stylus, player etc. All the necessary "pre-processing" required to allow your record player to even be able to reproduce any sound at all (for instance to prevent that your stylus begins a life of it's own and starts jumping around) impact the sound quality severely. And there is the fact that grooves on a vinyl are more condensed and played at a lower circular speed the more you get to the center of an LP, so you get more distortion as the playback of one side of the vinyl progresses. Then there's wow, flutter, and not to forget the cracking noise caused by dust and scratches.

You may LIKE the sound of an LP more than a CD, which is a matter of personal taste. But don't make it sound as if vinyl is better capable of reproducing the original recording quality, because it's not.

Suggested reading:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?ti ... hs_(Vinyl)
http://www.soundmattersblog.com/vinyl-r ... planation/

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leesmapman
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Re: Reissues project

#1119 Post by leesmapman »

vinyl is a hype. it's like liking a rotary phone.

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Xakrij
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Re: Reissues project

#1120 Post by Xakrij »

Hello...

I collect the vinyl for the appeal of the larger size artwork...and resale value other collectors are willing to pay.
I have several opened items which I play but many remain sealed and I'm fine with that.
For me, the satisfaction lies in the "thrill of the chase" and pride of ownership.

2 turntables and a mixing board are fun to play with but I can get the same satisfaction digitally with an app on my phone/tablet.
It's reminiscent of the old school days of recording reel-to-reel multi-track dub tapes...the ORIGINAL mix tapes!
I think it's interesting that today's mix tapes are digital on cd or mp3!
Shot in the fatal cause of 'frock-and-droll'


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tottenhammattspurs
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Re: Reissues project

#1122 Post by tottenhammattspurs »

It's only as good as your ears. My ears are analogue.
is is and isnt isnt

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Danimal
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Re: Reissues project

#1123 Post by Danimal »

OK, I don't get PSB posting these albums on Pledge Music at all. They're not a band like OMD who are probably using the pre-order cash for manufacturing product. They aren't offering anything exclusive like extra disc editions, and the albums have been available for pre-order on Amazon and elsewhere for weeks. I don't see the benefit of this for the fan or the artist.

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Zog
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Re: Reissues project

#1124 Post by Zog »

Just in case there's any misunderstanding: I'm not necessarily arguing about the merits of vinyl vs CDs. Actually, it looks like CDs are slowly on the way out. It may be rather ironic that within the next decade, CDs (as a digital storage format) may be gone, while vinyl will likely survive (at least as a niche product/format).

-Zog
New Stuff
*** “Back-Track” - Retro Funk Mix (MAS 2018)
https://soundcloud.com/martin-ashwoodsm ... k-mix-2018
*** “Cydonia” - Techno Mix (MAS 2018)
https://soundcloud.com/martin-ashwoodsm ... x-mas-2018

Disco.
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Re: Reissues project

#1125 Post by Disco. »

Danimal wrote:
Fri 23 Jun 2017, 2:42 am
OK, I don't get PSB posting these albums on Pledge Music at all. They're not a band like OMD who are probably using the pre-order cash for manufacturing product. They aren't offering anything exclusive like extra disc editions, and the albums have been available for pre-order on Amazon and elsewhere for weeks. I don't see the benefit of this for the fan or the artist.
It's more likely something Warner decided. Maybe they think its "Cool"

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