Please read

[whateverman42]

http://www.scribd.com/full/17044769?acc ... uy83anqjgp

I'd like as many people as possible to become aware of the world they're living in. It seems generally accepted that the governments are corrupt and 'civil liberties are going down the drain' (Neil Tennant quote), yet when you get into specifics you're called a nut. What the elites have done is misinform by combining these very real issues, like 9/11, the federal reserve, or the engineered crash, with all conspiracies, like aliens and bigfoot. Those are fun and good too, but not yet backed up with facts and evidence, like the former are. I'm not saying 9/11 was an inside job (although I believe it as much as I can without a confession) but it seems you're no longer allowed to ask questions or you're labelled unpatriotic. The similarities between the US today and Nazi Germany are striking. Dissension is supposed to be key to democracy, yet bills like the Anti-Hate law are going to restrict free speech.

Its all happening right now, please skim that article and find out for yourself what they're doing. To sum that up, do not take the mandatory 'vaccinations'.

[redsock]

Wow .... quite a smorgasbord of pretty much every conspiracy theory ever devised, are in that document .....

Can I just point to one glaringly obvious own goal in that document ... lets just say that there really is a shady group such as the Illuminati plotting to cause a pandemic virus to reduce the worlds population .... wouldn't it be far more practical and lucrative to wipe out some lesser countries first, you know, the ones that have abundant natural resources such as oil, minerals, precious metals etc, rather than destroy the infrastructure of the country that they intend to run the world after from .... ?

[gregf]

Right wing leaders in the US in the early 1960s did discuss the use of a viral epidemic
to reduce the population of ... 3rd world countries, not to be used on the U.S. itself.
But of course it would have killed Americans too. Instead they decided to kill one man.

Medical science can explain (and has been warning/predicting) of a pandemic for some time.
Given two choices, a massive conspiracy or simple epidemic, then for now,
I will take the simple explanation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

I did start to read your document, but stopped at "probbale cause".

The guy who wrote the book on conspiracy theories says
"most of them are nonsense, except the big one which is probably true".

[whateverman42]

The way I see conspiracy theories is that there are 4 options:

1. I believe and I'm wrong.
2. I believe and I'm right.
3. I don't believe and I'm wrong.
4. I don't believe and I'm right.

What are the consequences of each?

1. I look and feel sheepish.
2. Something can be done because awareness has been raised.
3. Worst scenario, completely unprepared.
4. Best scenario, world is fine.

Personally, I'd like to be cautious and avoid #2 at all costs, because #1 isn't as bad as #3. At any rate, dissension is the key to democracies and republics, and asking questions has become frowned upon. I just ask people to do their research and google the following: Ron Paul, the federal reserve, and 9/11 and Building 7. You don't have to buy into them, but ask yourself why asking these questions is so harshly received.

[Joemoz]

You don't have to buy into them, but ask yourself why asking these questions is so harshly received.

It is because they themselves lack scientific foundation and raise far more questions than they answer. Ask yourself why well-educated people and those who are actually experts on a subject are so rarely among the conspiracy-theorists. Don't waste your time on crap like this, there are plenty of real problems facing the world without the need to invent new ones to distract us.

[whateverman42]

I don't understand the apathy this received. OK, I'll try to get big picture, and I'm mostly referring to North America here, but I'm sure there's similarities to the UK.

If you took a poll asking if the government is corrupt, you'd probably get a response of YES in the 90% range. Why is it when people get specific they get called crazy conspiracy nuts? If you took a poll asking if the world is shit, you'd get a near 100% response. Well why the hell do you think its shit? Maybe there are unelected people with a lot of power and influence who are not exactly benevolent. Is it so hard to believe that there is a global elite who form policies and gain power and control? Is it so far beyond comprehension that entertaining the scary thought isn't worth the time?

We were told global warming is so urgent there was no time to think, just act. Now they're pushing carbon taxes and cap and trades that will further hurt the middle class and widen the rich/poor gap further. These conspiracies (9/11 truth, swine flu pandemic/vaccinations, the engineered economic collapse, etc.) are pretty damn important too, but rather than act in order to prevent the possibility, we ignore and ridicule the extremists of the movement. Why the difference is responses? The people who own the media have interests in global warming hysteria, not truth.

All I'm saying is that there is a very real possibility, from all the research I've done, that the time we are living in is (so far) the most important in human history. If there's evidence and believers and scientists on both sides of any argument, you have a responsibility to listen to both. I believe we've been lied to and dumbed down so much noone cares anymore, and we accept corruption passively. Criminals/mass murderers are in charge, and the ones trying to shine the public light on them are laughed at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

[redsock]

I'm not in disagreement with you on the whole, yes I agree that there are very shady goings on in all of the world's governments and they are probably up to things that are pretty abhorrent, and yet I can't really see them being capable of these massive conspiracies.
Lets face it most couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery if their lives depended on it and run their own countries to a decent degree, so how they are expected to pull off these far larger and more complicated ones, it just seems a bit of a stretch.

Another thing which doesn't add up is that these "programs" they are trying to set up (mass murder via epidemics etc ... ) take a long time to come to fruition, and the ones that are supposedly instigating them won't see the fruits of their labour and be able to take advantage of them.


One thing I do think will happen soon though, the basic plot to V for Vendetta isn't far away ......

[Deschanel]

The apathy you received is understandable. You took about twenty different issues, put them in a blender, and poured us a milkshake of paranoia, self-pity, and right-wing talking points on the issue of global warming.

"We were told global warming is so urgent there was no time to think, just act. Now they're pushing carbon taxes and cap and trades that will further hurt the middle class and widen the rich/poor gap further."

The only people telling you not to think is whomever provided this packet of distortions. It's being rushed? The observance of global warming goes back to the 1970's. 35 years later politicians- NOT scientists- representing polluting industries are the ones still "debating" it in our hemisphere. No scientists of any repute are. Asides from climate change, let me ask you the question: Do you believe that industry ought to be able to pollute the air, sea, and land, for profit and without any regulations whatsoever? No matter the negative effect of billions of people? You've already answered that with the pack of lies quoted above. The idea that it's being "rushed" is a laugh, the Republicans have been obstructing even minimal action for decades.

Just verbatim right-wing lies that carbon taxes will "further hurt the middle class/ widen the rich poor gap". You realize these are ALL Republican talking points, and it's laughable that they suddenly care about the middle class, or the poor?
They successfully crippled the f*** out the middle class in the US, actively despise the poor, widened that rich/poor gap to historic and tragic levels. And you're here spouting their line that even minimal regulation of pollution-causing industry will be the bad for the poor. Bitter laughter here.

No wonder you're paranoid, people are indeed lying to you. You sound like a naive teenager.

[whateverman42]

Your main problem is calling my views right wing. Before I opened my eyes as to why the world is so shitty, I was a liberal, and still am. But the issues in the world today are not solved by arguing right or left, in fact that's how the elites have divided us. Have you noticed whether America voted in a Republican or Democrat the wars or policies never truly changed? Most campaigned on peace messages, because that's what the people truly want, yet why did every president see fit to police the world? They are f*** puppets, they are controlled, there is a huge pattern that is in plain sight, and people will not realize what is going on until they are all microchipped and in the deepest shit possible.

A couple years ago I was a MEGA anti-global warming nut, believing everything the media and government said. I knew there were 'right wing conservatives' who didn't believe it, and I stayed away from those idiots. But there are two sides to every argument, and have you truly listened to the other side?

Mars polar caps are melting at a faster rate than our own. Tell me how SUV's are to blame for that? Sounds like increased solar activity to me... And have you noticed how the earth is actually cooling the past decade? Its changed from global warming to climate change to account for that discrepancy. Did you know deaths from natural disasters are down 95% from the early 1900's? Have you heard how deeply flawed the famous hockey stick graph Al Gore used to correlate temperature and CO2 actually is? And always ask yourself, who is benefitting? Al Gore stands to make billions, please research that fact. Were you also aware that 30,000 SCIENTISTS are suing Gore for fraud? Isn't it a bit funny how that isn't being reported in the mainstream media? Did you know of all the carbon being put in the atmosphere human activity only accounts in the single digits?

I am an environmentalist, but perversely the elites have hopped on our backs and are using genuine concerns for the planet as a way to eliminate the middle class and make extra trillions for their criminal friends. I believe acid rain, deforestation, and many other terrible things are being done to our planet and they are having catastrophic consequences. I believe the climate is changing, hell, it always is on earth. But not because of carbon dioxide, especially not man made. We have to start recycling, using renewable energies, and all that good stuff. We simply need to stop lining the riches pockets and look at facts, and let reason and logic, not fear, dictate our behaviour. The second we get intimidated and fearful and base our decisions on that, well, we've already let them control us.

You know what, thanks for calling me a teenager. That's a point in peoples lives when they're at their most passionate and idealistic. Perhaps I haven't been jaded enough yet by today's decadent and corrupt society to see a better way of life is actually possible. Just realize this, there is a massive economic crash coming this fall and its been engineered since step one. It will destroy America, and I will bump this thread on the day everyone wakes up to reality, because that is the next big event. And once again, don't take the coming vaccine: in the US in 1975 there was a swine flu scare and they rushed out a vaccine. It killed more people than the flu. Is it incompetence or sinister? The mere fact of history repeating leads me to believe the latter.

P.S. It sure is more important to talk about some stupid dead celebrity. Even if this was hogwash (and the main gist is not) at least it promotes critical thinking. When will people stop being sheep and caring about meaningless celebrities and finally think for themselves? It'll probably be too late.

[Joemoz]

Regarding global warming, based on what qualifications are you better to judge this than the world's leading scientists, 99% of which disagree with your views? Do you really think they are just ignorant sheep that follow their leader, and that you can convince us that "Whateverman42" of the Pet Shop Boys Community knows better?

When it comes to building jumbo jets we generally prefer to leave it to people who know how, but for some reason when it comes to these sort of things everyone thinks they need to work it out for themselves.

And although you chose to ignore my comment before, I will repeat it: Conspiracy theories in general raise many more questions than they answer. One of them being how they've managed to make everyone involved keep silent about it.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent person, so you should be able at least to see the comedy of how you uncritically seem to believe in so many different theories and that they are probably all true. Of course there may be a core of truth to some of them, but that in itself is exactly why the conspiracy theories arise - because there are certain things that are kept secret and some things we cannot explain. To make the jump - like you do - that this must mean that there is a large conspiracy going on behind the scenes planning all these things is simply naïve. Criticise the rulers and try to expose fraud and cover-ups, but don't mix it up with insane theories - that sort of thing simply ruins a good cause - and makes it easier for the Cheneys/Khameneis/Mugabes/etc. of this world to write off their critics as lunatics.

[whateverman42]

"One of the most illogical arguments in the world for Global Warming is the one that states "most" of our human scientist believe it is so. Of course, this is not a good reason to believe in global warming, which by definition means that mankind's output of CO2 is causing our Earth's climate to heat up. Now let's look at this argument that those who have taken this global warming thing as some sort of religion.

What is most? By definition that would be over 50%, but let's say that the number of scientists that believe in this theory is 65%, that would mean that 35% don't believe in it or are unsure about it. Think about how 99% of the scientists back in the day believed the world was flat while only 1% believed it was round. In modern times "most" global economists didn't expect a Global Financial Crisis Meltdown.

This concept of "most" or majority rule with atmospheric or scientific theory is taking the issue of Democracy way too far. For instance, if all the people you know decided to jump off a bridge, would you agree to go too?

The reality is that the climate on our planet is complicated and there are many factors, mankind's pollution, while it is a nuisance, disgusting and nothing to be proud of is such a tiny part of the overall factors involved, that it really isn't a problem of Epic Proportions as slated by the alarmists.

Additionally, warming periods are not nearly as dangerous to the species of this planet as cooling periods or Ice Ages. And remember in the 70s and early 80s the scientists were warning us that we were going into a ice age?

Actually, remember Y2K when all of human civilization was going to melt down? The alarmists will have to come up with a better reason for believing in this theory than; "Most Scientists" agree that this theory is real. Think on this."

http://ezinearticles.com/?Most-Scientis ... id=2201319

History has a way of repeating itself, the saying is as tired as it is true. The American government has proved they will lie to go to war, research the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Therefore that doesn't add to the mounting pile of evidence about 9/11? I guess not. If the mainstream media doesn't report it it can't be true.

Of course conspiracies have more questions than answers, I could use that argument in defense of conspiracies. Is the world really so black and white to most people? Since when did questions and asking why become a bad thing? You rely on the media and politicians (both owned by the elites) to give you all your information, so of course it will be simplicized. This reminds me of a Republican debate a couple years ago, where Ron Paul discussed the concept of blowback. He said America can't go around the world policing everyone and not expect anger and resentment. The despicable Rudy Guiliani simplicized the hell out of it by responding with fake righteousness, saying 'Americans invited the attacks sir? I've never heard that before, and I'd like him to apoligize and say he didn't really mean that.' And the idiots cheered and clapped. What they do is question your patriotism if you dissent or present logic or reason in your arguments. How can you not see the direction the world is heading?

Sure, I'm a random guy on some music forum, but we're all human beings. They have controlled us into feeling powerless, and everyone is ordinary. I have never met an ordinary person, all I see are extraordinary people having their potential dulled by fast food, propaganda, and their fascination with shiny gadgets.

Finally, conspiracies are right and wrong like everything else. If the moon landing is proved real then ALL conspiracies are fake? I think not. I believe they went to the moon, but I believe the 9/11 attacks are very fishy, and very secretive. I don't know for sure, but I'm using reason to ask questions, instead of being spoon fed my beliefs.

EDIT: Check out this alarmist newspaper article, then read all the comments from intelligent readers who aren't buying the bullshit anymore.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blog ... d-ice.aspx

Do these people sound like narrow-minded right wing republicans? Do they sounds like nutty conspiracy theorists? They sounds like reasonable people to me. To call any skeptic right wing, stupid, or dangerous is delusional. Healthy debate where both sides hear eachother is the key to democracy and freedom. The second any question is ignored or ridiculed, democracy has taken a hit. Major policies like global warming and the huge bailouts are passing and being accepted based on fear. They tell you time is running out, action is needed NOW before you have time to think. I've heard nothing but their side for years, and now that evidence, facts, and scientists are refuting it it seems to me the information is being repressed. I literally feel like I'm in the twilight zone, the 'unwashed masses' the elites are planning to control are defending them! I've always felt in the back of my mind that the life society gave us is sort of shitty and empty; hollow. Do you think this is the way its always been, or is meant to be? People always elect the peace candidate, yet the leaders always wage war. We aren't doing anything in Africa because we're not supposed to, not because we don't want to. On the whole, we are a good species. But we have always let the bad men into power, because power doesn't attract good people as strongly as it does bad ones. Now these guys have made us lazy and passive and stupid, and everyone takes it for granted, like its sustainable? Like they won't use our inability to resist to their advantage?

Sigh, I'm sorry, I know this thread has been one huge mega-rant from me. But now I've presented you with common sense, and I don't ask that you judge me or believe me. Research some of my claims, check out more. Take everything with a grain of salt. Form a general opinion. Think. Then maybe you won't care so much about Michael Jackson anymore. But hell, what do I know? I'm just some guy called whateverman42 on Pet Shop Boys Forum. I might come across as naive, have a personal leaning bias towards theories, and maybe I'm a bit annoying and righteous. But why let that stop you from looking into it? And ask yourself, what am I, whateverman42, doing?

Asking questions. And for that I apologize.

[Deschanel]

Believe me, I was being kind when I said you sounded like a teenager. As in, okay, I won't be arguing with someone so clearly young and naive and impressionable about this. And yes, you were repeating right-wing talking points. And no, you're no environmentalist at all. And your reply seems to be tossing yet more issues into the blender.

Learn to make your points concisely, cite your sources, make your case in good faith. This is great advice for any writer anywhere, or any commentor on a website who chooses to engage in an argument. Keep in mind it's never personal.
I don't think this is the place to debate what you're on about, actually.

[whateverman42]

You are good, that was very concise and chock full of wrong-headed thinking. Did you not read the words that I, um, wrote? You know, the things you read and react to? Not the things you ignore and prove my point?

- You insinuated free speech has no place on a public forum.
- You labelled all dissent right wing talking points. You sure have an open mind.
- You judge my character which says four things:
1. You are out of your comfort zone discussing such a radical topic.
2. You are willing to judge me based on x amounts of posts on the internet. You are right, I am no environmentalist. You just forgot to cite your sources.
3. You decide the type of people you will debate, the ones you're comfortable with (once again, comfort). That's not limiting at all.
4. You're willing to ignore the whole part where I admit my limitations. I ramble, I'm not a great essayist, but does that mean my voice should not be heard?

Concise enough? I get the impression you haven't entertained the possibility that you've been lied to your whole life. I know,
too scary. Go back to your comfort zone, where people don't pick on you for being different. I'm sorry for being harsh, but being talked down to by a sheep is a bit more than I can handle.

I don't expect you to watch this, after all it is 2 hours, but this has the potential to change any of your lives. At least try the first 5 minutes, and if you're intruiged the time'll fly by. This is THE best video on the state of modern human affairs I've ever seen. Judge it on its content, not my recomendation. The truth is in front of you if you have an open mind.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1196324215

And finally, apologies to Deschanel for trying to have a discussion on something important with other human beings. Next time I'll be good and blend in and discuss soccer and MJ.

[gregf]

Hey Whateverman, don't assume we're your enemy.
We may be more sympathetic than you think.

But on the net people are not going to read long long posts about everything.
It would not matter how right you are, we are human. People just dont have the time.

We have done GW to death. If you have good evidence, put it up.
But focus. Give us a clue what topic in particular you want a reply on.

I live in a hot dry country on the edge and people are already dying here because of GW.
I understand why folk in cold countries are sceptical.

Many of us here like to think and talk about more interesting things than soccer and MJ.

And I admire how beautifully and succinctly Deschanel writes.

[edit] I listened to 1 hour 20 minutes of your Google video.

Do you know that Exxon spent US$ 17 billion on disinformation countering all
scientific evidence for GW. They even had their man is Bush's cabinet change
the name to "Climate Change". Yet you're saying "they" are pushing GW on us ? !
That's contradictory.

[Joemoz]

Before anyone spends two hours of their lives looking at that David Icke video that Whateverman42 provided a link for, you might want to read what Skepticwikihas to say about him:

"As with most conspiracy theorists, there are two things that David Icke fails to explain.

The first is how he came to know the things he claims he knows. This is a most singular omission. When, for example, Icke alleges that Tony Blair is secretly a genocidal twelve-foot tall space lizard who drinks human blood and is plotting to enslave humanity, then he must, presumably have some reason for thinking this. But he does not say what this reason is: we suspect that his case does not rest on photographic evidence, or on documentary evidence, or on eyewitness evidence, or on evidence.

The other thing he doesn't explain is why the Illuminati, Fascists, Jews, New World Order, Freemasons, Satanists, and Reptilians let him get away with publishing all their secrets. If I was an evil space lizard with a taste for human flesh, and some former goalie from Leicester started exposing my plans to enslave humanity, I would add him to the "Victims" section of my "To Do" list. Yet it seems that this festering conspiracy of pure evil has a curious respect, not only for Icke's life and limb, but also for his freedom of speech.

He has been criticized for his association with far-right groups, including notorious Holocaust deniers. The fact that they are not ashamed to be associated with him tells you all you need to know about Holocaust deniers, who are apparently happy to share a platform with a man who believes that Queen Elizabeth II is a child-sacrificing lizard.

The really strange thing about David Icke is that he has persuaded other people to take him seriously, and can apparently make a living out of peddling his opinions. This proves, if further proof were needed, that people really will believe anything. "

It is useful, however, in understanding how 'whateverman42' came up with his world views, and how seriously we ought to take him.