I was shocked to learn that

[Undertaker]

Personally, i think they should bring back National Service in Britain. Thats all.

[glennjridge]

I just so happen to think that spanking is ok for kids ...by the parents.. I know in todays world people like you cant imagine how anybody raised children before 2011... too bad. I...am a parent. not you...todays kids are having more babies younger,without having a family,and are alot more wild and rebellious.something changed from how kids were more respectful back then. theres no serious discipline anymore. that means no consequences other than words that float on the air.

you'd like to cast spanking a little kid as on par with King Henrys the stretching rack, but your just being silly.you're never going to know what its like to merge with a woman and raise something that came from both of you and send it out into the world, so you're a leading authority on nothing.

Glenn, I'm not addressing your wish to punish kids by force. But I will address your attitude that there was some golden age years ago when kids were closer to angels. When was this? the 30s? 50s? 90s? Remember, 120 years ago, it wasn't anything strange for a 15 year old to get married and start popping kids. What you are against are the ills of modernity. The problem is we have extended childhood beyond anything reasonable. The oft cited (and perhaps a bit wrong) Philipe Arias tells us that before around 1600 there WAS no childhood, kids were just little adults. I say, kids don't need disicipline, they need freedom and responsilbity. And I believe they need it in almost all aspects of their lives. In some areas, such as sexual, or the ability to leave home, this will upset most. I recommend John Holt's book Escape From Childhood. I just don't think more authority in your face is the answer kids need. Quite the opposite.

kids dont need discipline,they need freedom and responsibility?

my older brother and my younger sister both had children before I did. coupled with my upbringing and what I see with their children I can talk with experience. you dont know what its like till you have a screaming 4 year old in a chillis restaurant who is throwing food and silverware on the floor because she doesnt want to sit down. with deschanel,she gets her way, a 4 year old girl becomes the commander of 5 adults and dictates when they leave such and such a place so as to avoid a scene.

spanking IS effective,it works. calming words and freedom dont trump an angry child throwing a world class fit.the sensation of pain makes an impression on a kid. its just the way it is.words have zero power until somewhere around their tween and teen years.

[raggatwin]

Those teachers who would have to cane students shouldnt be teaching. I am a teacher and find that a thinly veiled put down is the most effective way of controlling arsehole students. kids that play up are usually bored, again this is something a eacher can prepare for in their lesson planning. i take it none of the above comments are from teachers?

oh yes, i will be out on strike today!

Did you watch Jamie's Dream School? Children think that they are at school to be entertained - they're not. They're there to learn but unfortunately a generation of lily-livered bedwetting liberals have destroyed the education system and the consequences will be felt for generations to come.

O tempora o mores!

I am no liberal, i like the kids to have fun in my classes (studies show they are much more likely to learn this way) but I am 100% in control - i dont stand for bullshitters, one of the reaons that I am popular with students generally. The fact is.... the teachers who have the most classroom probelms are those who cannot relate to their students on any level or who are just plain boring. There is a phrase in teaching called death by powerpoint, ie classes that have no interactive elememnt to them whatsoever and where the outcome is that either the kids are stupefied by boredom or present what we call challenging behaviour. I am not saying that i am the best teacher in the world but i generally dont have problems in terms of behaviour in my classes. I have (and do) teach a range of subjects including A levels in Sociology, Psychology, Communications Studies, Economics, Philosophy and err.... business studies BTEC. I have also taught adults on access to higher education programmes and they can often be much worse in terms of presenting challenging behaviour - mobile phone usage, talking when im talking etc. Beating kids is no sort of ansewr at all.

As someone sang a song about it... violence breeds violence.

[York Minster]

I just so happen to think that spanking is ok for kids ...by the parents.. I know in todays world people like you cant imagine how anybody raised children before 2011... too bad. I...am a parent. not you...todays kids are having more babies younger,without having a family,and are alot more wild and rebellious.something changed from how kids were more respectful back then. theres no serious discipline anymore. that means no consequences other than words that float on the air.

you'd like to cast spanking a little kid as on par with King Henrys the stretching rack, but your just being silly.you're never going to know what its like to merge with a woman and raise something that came from both of you and send it out into the world, so you're a leading authority on nothing.

Glenn, I'm not addressing your wish to punish kids by force. But I will address your attitude that there was some golden age years ago when kids were closer to angels. When was this? the 30s? 50s? 90s? Remember, 120 years ago, it wasn't anything strange for a 15 year old to get married and start popping kids. What you are against are the ills of modernity. The problem is we have extended childhood beyond anything reasonable. The oft cited (and perhaps a bit wrong) Philipe Arias tells us that before around 1600 there WAS no childhood, kids were just little adults. I say, kids don't need disicipline, they need freedom and responsilbity. And I believe they need it in almost all aspects of their lives. In some areas, such as sexual, or the ability to leave home, this will upset most. I recommend John Holt's book Escape From Childhood. I just don't think more authority in your face is the answer kids need. Quite the opposite.

kids dont need discipline,they need freedom and responsibility?

my older brother and my younger sister both had children before I did. coupled with my upbringing and what I see with their children I can talk with experience. you dont know what its like till you have a screaming 4 year old in a chillis restaurant who is throwing food and silverware on the floor because she doesnt want to sit down. with deschanel,she gets her way, a 4 year old girl becomes the commander of 5 adults and dictates when they leave such and such a place so as to avoid a scene.

spanking IS effective,it works. calming words and freedom dont trump an angry child throwing a world class fit.the sensation of pain makes an impression on a kid. its just the way it is.words have zero power until somewhere around their tween and teen years.

I think perhaps I wasn't totally clear in how the "freedom and responsiblity" should be applied. I feel the whole system needs reworking on a macro level. Kids as young as 8 or 10 should be able to run businesses if they prove themselves trustworthy for loans, and that sort of thing. Hopefully, with macro changes, there would be less throwing food around at Chilis. However, at age 4, they haven't exactly hit the age of reason, so if you have to do something, then you have to do it in that circumstance, though perhaps hitting isn't always the answer there.

[Drico One]

It's not the teacher's job to discipline children. That's the parents' responsibility. If the parents have done their job, Little Johnny is unlikely to require any great discipline at school, and certainly nothing that requires physical violence. The problems occur when feckless/incompetent/unsuitable parents have abdicated their own responsibility and society allowing fathers to walk away from their responsibilities is hardly going to do anything other than contribute to this.

The problem now is that in some Western societies, there is a sizable underclass - not decent working class, I'm talking about the very bottom layer of society that is most susceptible to anti-social and criminal behaviour - that is almost beyond control. These people can no longer be bought off by social welfare payments and marginalised by the rest of society with minimal disruption to the rest. The only solution is to eradicate this underclass. That can only be done by massive investment and the pumping of huge resources into areas that have been abandoned by Anglo-Saxon economics and left to fend for themselves without a social amenity or basic social infrastructure. Only a genuine political/societal will to rectify this will minimise this cohort of society and make it possible to deal with those remaining that step out of line. In more equal societies, this is much less of a problem and discipline is maintained in classrooms without recourse to physical violence.

And before anybody pipes up about being working class, working their way up, and never being part of the criminal element, I fully realise that many people come from disadvantaged backgrounds and still contribute positively to society. I am simply pointing out the simple fact that if you set up your society/economy in such a way that marginalises huge sections of that society, then it is much more likely that a significant minority of that marginalised cohort will turn out the wrong way. The justice system can control so much of that, but is swamped when a tipping point of marginalisation is reached in a society.

The Daily Mail would bring back the death penalty, but that hasn't done too much for the American crime rate over the years. I'm afraid the solution lies in constructing less unequal societies. And before anybody says that you cannot have this kind of "socialism", think again. The wealthy of the European Union and beyond have seen to it that ordinary workers in countries such as Ireland and Greece MUST pay for the gambling losses of bankers. German taxpayers aren't merely bailing out profligate peripherals - unbeknown to many of them, they are saving the skins of their own gangster bankers. There IS socialism - but only for the rich, and it is paid for by Irish, Greek, Portuguese, and German taxpayers (many of whom, like me, always opposed the corrupt clientalist politicians that wreaked predictable disaster on countries like Ireland). The full force of savage free-market capitalism must be unleashed on the peasantry, but not on the rich, heaven forfend.

I - and every other worker in this country - am paying EUR 108,000 to pay off a debt that I never accrued. I have no personal debt (unlike the semi-literate morons among my countrymen who "partied" during the Bertie bubble), but as things stand, 108,000 must be paid by me, and everybody else fortunate enough to be in a job, out of my taxes to keep the international financial system afloat. Marvelous! Let's not even pretend people here would have allowed that unaffordable 108,000 to be spent on social infrastructure, education, healthcare, transport, and all of the other good stuff that dramatically reduces the levels of anti-social behaviour in schoolrooms and society at large and actually gives people like me a society to live in.

Drico.

[transforce]

I also am a teacher in the UK (primary). The children in this country are much more out of control than they ever were before. Yes, parental upbringing/lack of rules etc causes the majority of problems in schools as the kids have no boundaries. Over the last 15 years things have become worse. In particular this whole idea of a child making decisions about what they want to do, the unclear procedures of discipline and the constant cloud of abuse accusations and distrust, particularly of men in the profession have led to a very unstable situation.

Ultimately it depends on the which school you go to. The more affluent area have a larger number of children who come from more secure families. Less affluent areas have a larger number of children from families where crime is rife, and they live a life on benefits. OK this is a generalisation, but the 2% of kids from these 'broken' families will play up and spoil it for the other 98%.

I've been reprimanded myself for shouting at two 10 year olds who were beating the living daylights out of a 7 year old. The head told me to go and calm down whilst she made them sign a 'behaviour contract', which they clearly did not take seriously. And the next day they were also in trouble for something similar. Contract broken, and after a couple more days completely forgotten about.

The cane, I'm not sure about that one. What I think is that there is very little you can actually do about these kinds of kids, and I think they should be removed from schools so that everyone else can learn without the distraction they provide.

[Flaffer]

well said Drico, however I think the major underlying problem is also the idea that one is owed something and doesn't have to work for it. That manifests itself in all levels, from the person spouting out kids who believe they have a right to not work and others must pay for their lifestyle choices to those bankers at the higher levels who practice tax avoidance and every scam in the book. I always think it is spoilt child syndrome that can be applied to such groups - It is noticeable that that the airline staff who strike are BA cabin crew who earn twice what those who work for Virgin earn (on average) with far greater benefits, Train and tube drivers who get paid 2-3 times what a bus driver earns and the public sector workers who go on strike are not those cleaning or working at Town Halls, rest homes, drivers, disability support workers etc but those on the higher salaries with the most time off and higher pensions, compare a care home workers lot with that of an average nurse, it is a truly undervalued, underpaid and under appreciated role without the 'status' afforded to the former.
Drico do you believe that massive expenditure is part of the solution or is it more a sticking plaster over a gaping wound and education in relation to responsibility is more of a way forward?

[Flaffer]

Transforce, what you said is so true, it's a cyclical problem, someone who has kids brings them up with no respect ergo when they have kids they have no discipline. I got someone threaten to take me to court because I told him that it was not a good idea to let his kids sit on an escalator with their fingers splayed out on the steps and unsupervised , (I was a property manager at the time). He told me to f*** off and if anything happened he would have sued me anyway, thankfully his kids didn't get hurt but if they had done it would have been everyone else's fault apart from him, letting his four year old kid piss around whilst he shopped

[raggatwin]

well said Drico, however I think the major underlying problem is also the idea that one is owed something and doesn't have to work for it. That manifests itself in all levels, from the person spouting out kids who believe they have a right to not work and others must pay for their lifestyle choices to those bankers at the higher levels who practice tax avoidance and every scam in the book. I always think it is spoilt child syndrome that can be applied to such groups - It is noticeable that that the airline staff who strike are BA cabin crew who earn twice what those who work for Virgin earn (on average) with far greater benefits, Train and tube drivers who get paid 2-3 times what a bus driver earns and the public sector workers who go on strike are not those cleaning or working at Town Halls, rest homes, drivers, disability support workers etc but those on the higher salaries with the most time off and higher pensions, compare a care home workers lot with that of an average nurse, it is a truly undervalued, underpaid and under appreciated role without the 'status' afforded to the former.
Drico do you believe that massive expenditure is part of the solution or is it more a sticking plaster over a gaping wound and education in relation to responsibility is more of a way forward?

mmmn, the middle class plan for childbirth, the poor shit them out.....
The 'fact' that BA staff allegedly earn twic what people at Virgin earn is irrelevant, people at virgin should be getting a pay rise then.
As far as i am aware when I and my colleagues go on strike the intention is to raise the pay and conditions of all public sector workers not just for teaching staff, indeed i struck the other day and i dont even have a pension!
That the work of care workers is undervalued in relation to the work of nurses is not the fault of nurses it is symptomatic of our status obsessed capitalist society

[Drico One]

As much as I'm a great believer in the absolute necessity and benefit of trade unions, they now find themselves in the unsustainable position of demanding that their public sector pensions are paid for by private sector people who themselves do not have a pension.

That's not a winnable argument. Divide the workforce into public and private sector. Destroy trade unions in the private sector and roll back worker's rights and conditions under the guise of "flexibility", "competitiveness", and "job creation". Then, when the private sector is a savage place in which to exist, the public sector dominoes will soon fall into place. That's the unbeatable divide and conquer strategy of right-wing governments everywhere. It's also part of the reason why so much of the country is a frightening urban wasteland of hopelessness and despair.

Drico.

[Drico One]

Drico do you believe that massive expenditure is part of the solution or is it more a sticking plaster over a gaping wound and education in relation to responsibility is more of a way forward?

Expenditure alone will solve nothing - but it's an inescapable reality that money will have to be spent in massive quantities if the vast swathes of the population left behind by "prosperity" are ever to catch up under their own steam. Of course, this will never happen. There is no political will for it - it's such a long-term project that no politician will benefit electorally from it - and the general public is either too stupid, greedy, or preoccupied with surviving to make it so. They'd sooner hang union members than the kleptocratic bankers and clientalist politicians that have wiped out entire generations.

Personal responsibility must go hand-in-hand with expenditure, but I'll not go into that now for fear of launching into a diatribe against my own demented countrymen and their utter lack of personal responsibility for their own role in my country's pathetic demise.

Drico.

[raggatwin]

The problem is capitalism it engenders a sense of greed into 'consumers', it is very difficult to step outside an ideological system that is continually selling you something, christ even when you are sitting on a public khazi there is often a sign on the back of the door trying to sell you something. i will bow to Drico's superior knowledge of Ireland but I can remember when 'property' in Irealnd was dirt cheap, indeed i know many people who have moved back there after selling houses here and had a load of money to spare. the prolem then happended when the Irish (and at an earlier stage the British) began to fetishize the idea of owning an inanimate object - a building. Once you have the building you need all of the other inanimate stuff to go into it to make it a home, ahh capitalism provides. You have no money? Fine, we will lend you some, you then spiral into a debt spiral because capitalism is shipping your job to other parts of the world where they can get other working people to make itemas even cheaper than you can, thus raising the surplus value of labour. If all of this seems to be drifting away from the issue of what shall we' do with the poor... for me they are linked. Thatcherism and then Blairism destroyed working class communities to the extent that there are now two or three generations who have not worked in huge swathes of the UK, along with unemployment comes all sorts of social problems, again the existence of a poor (often white) has an ideological function, you dont want to be like those scum, work harder and you will keep your job then! As an aside to this public sector workers do an average of ten hours unpaid overtime per week. If private sector workers feel they are getting shafted in a way that public sector workers (the reverese is true btw) are then they should organise, of course taking action has been made virtually impossible by successive governments. its not about public or private (the 'difference' os ideological).

Is is not about one one of us, it is about all of us. i boycott many private sector companies because of the way they treat their workers.

Workers of the world unite!

[Patrick Bateman]

Most public sector workers are retards anyway. It's full of people who can barely scrape together five GCSEs and would struggle to find a job anywhere else. Why should they continue to receive preferential working conditions when the average worker in the private sector is fortunate to even have a job at the moment?

[glennjridge]

what I dont like is how when there are lay-offs of union protected workers,private sector people on comment boards spring to life and seem just beside themselves with a almost devilish glee.
they turn workforce reductions into a us vs them situation even though those private sector people alot of whom just didnt go to college are also under the axe themselves.its jealousy behind it.

yeah I get a pension for the rest of my life,but that was the path I took... to appy for a county job and take the exam and beat out other applicants. its not my fault what other people did or didnt do with their career choices.

[raggatwin]

I agree with the first part of what you say Glenn but like i said, for me, we should unionise ALL working people. For example in Britain there is a supermarket chain called Tesco. A couple of years ago Tesco made a post tax profit of one billion pounds. Typically they have closed their staff pension scheme to new members of staff, the reason? 'Unaffordable'. That is the nasty side of capitalism.