Patrick Bateman wrote:Most public sector workers are retards anyway. It's full of people who can barely scrape together five GCSEs and would struggle to find a job anywhere else. Why should they continue to receive preferential working conditions when the average worker in the private sector is fortunate to even have a job at the moment?
Any empirical evidence for your assertions Mr Bateman?
If capitalism provides, why would 'one' be fortunate?
The argument that workers in the private sector do not have pensions so workers in the public sector should not have them is a strawman one, it dont stand up to rigorous debate.
Hello my name is Neil Tennant and I'm Chris Lowe and we're of the Pet Shop Boys.
raggatwin wrote:Any empirical evidence for your assertions Mr Bateman?
Go to any council office, job centre, civil service department.....
raggatwin wrote:The argument that workers in the private sector do not have pensions so workers in the public sector should not have them is a strawman one, it dont stand up to rigorous debate.
Why should taxes paid by a private sector worker without a pension go towards paying for a public sector worker with one?
anecdotal 'evidence' is not evidence. Having worked in both private and public sectors i have witnessed the sorts of behaviour youve outlined in both.
The real question is why dont huge corporations with huge profits feel morally obliged to make sure that their employees (usually on short term, poor conditions contracts) are okay in retirement?
In adddition to this; Why do so many working people accept the 'naturalness' of capitalist economic arguements that legitimate their own poverty, whether they are unemployed or part of the working poor. Remember one third of homeowners are living in poverty, they are the working poor.
Hello my name is Neil Tennant and I'm Chris Lowe and we're of the Pet Shop Boys.
Why don't blue-collar private sector workers organise? Because blue-collar private sector workers have no differentiating value to the employer other than the cost of their labour. Essentially, they take part in a race to the bottom to give themselves the best chance of finding work. It's utterly misguided, of course, but you try starting a union in a minimum wage private sector workplace and see how long you'll last on the payroll...
Successive anti-union laws have been passed to make being member of a union a sackable offence in many workplaces.
I'd defend the public sector's right to a pension if that entire protected workforce voted en masse for left-leaning political parties. However, there is something utterly hypocritical when Republicans like Glenn defend his public sector pension whilst voting for parties that demonise "big government."
Drico.
The pale kid that hides in the attic behind his PC...
yeah i did see the hypocrisy in glenn's statement but im not in the mood for full out arguments.
private sector workers dont go for unions because the right has actively split the working class to the extent that alot of people now think they are middle class and that unions belong to the class concious past.
Hello my name is Neil Tennant and I'm Chris Lowe and we're of the Pet Shop Boys.
raggatwin wrote:The argument that workers in the private sector do not have pensions so workers in the public sector should not have them is a strawman one, it dont stand up to rigorous debate.
That's not the argument, though, Ragga. The argument is who pays for public sector pensions. The only pension that should be payed for by taxpayers is the state pension. That is something everybody receives regardless of means, unless they choose to forfeit. That is true equality. But if public sector unions are expecting some pleb in a shaky minimum wage private sector job to pay into some retirement fund for public sector workers, then unions are about as socialist as Idi Amin. If public sector workers want something more, they should do what those without pension benefits in the private sector do: open a private fund out of their own salaries.
Drico.
The pale kid that hides in the attic behind his PC...
I agree the unions are a bit hopeless sometimes, indeed UCU put my branch in a very embarrassing position last week which meant we had to come out for an hour the Friday after the Thursday we struck for the national pensions dispute. They had forgot to infomr us that we couldnt come out for the pensions and our local dispute on the same day. The college decided to take half a days pay, made those of us on the committie very unpopular.
Indeed, many of the unions are third way rather than socialist and is probably a reason why they are not trusted on much of the left as they are seen as being in bed with management, there are of course exceptions, RMT FBU spring to mind. My point as a socialist is to raise the conciousness of the poor, working and lower middle classes, to make them understand (admittedly from a left perspective) that their 'fight' is fundamantally the same, that their is a class war and our people are losing it. I make no distinction between private and public sector, we are all workers.
As for public sector workers opening a private fund out of their own salaries, how do you suggest they do this. most people in the private sector cannot afford to do this and they are, by in large, paid more than public sector workers. On this point i return to my Tescos example, we shoulld force these huge global corporations to look after their staff and penalise them if they do not.
Hello my name is Neil Tennant and I'm Chris Lowe and we're of the Pet Shop Boys.
Drico One wrote:That's not the argument, though, Ragga. The argument is who pays for public sector pensions. The only pension that should be payed for by taxpayers is the state pension. That is something everybody receives regardless of means, unless they choose to forfeit. That is true equality. But if public sector unions are expecting some pleb in a shaky minimum wage private sector job to pay into some retirement fund for public sector workers, then unions are about as socialist as Idi Amin. If public sector workers want something more, they should do what those without pension benefits in the private sector do: open a private fund out of their own salaries.
All pensions should be paid from the income generated within these borders. There shoulod be more following up of tax avoidance when these big coroporations 'offshore' their accounts rather than scapegoating the poor as a manes of diverting attention away from the real criminals in the banks and big business. All workers should be entitled to a decent retirement. The state pension should be linked to the cost of living and not the rate of inflation as it currently is.
Hello my name is Neil Tennant and I'm Chris Lowe and we're of the Pet Shop Boys.
I largely agree with you, Ragga, but I think you speak a language that is archaic to white-collar, private-sector, left-leaning sympathisers like me. The days of the Internationale are long gone.
You argue that people in the public sector cannot afford to open a private pension, well, that's pretty much how it is for most in the private sector as well. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it - but you'll see no mass work stoppages to look after the interests of the exploited minimum wage private sector sap who is expected to fork out for other workers' retirement funds.
Your argument that the public sector is paid less than the private sector doesn't apply in Ireland, for example, where average public sector salaries are greater than those in the private sector. Furthermore, job security is almost guaranteed in the public sector here, whereas everybody - no matter how educated - can expect to sample unemployment in the private sector. And this in a country that's going down the plug-hole.
Naturally, I agree with you about Tesco and all other corporations, but that's not going to happen. The European Union social model is about as good as it gets, I'm afraid.
Drico.
The pale kid that hides in the attic behind his PC...
Drico, i think we are singing from two sides of the same hymn sheet and that there is some overlap in what we say. Without wanting to blow your trumpet (!) your arguments are always reasoned and bare much relation to the facts on the ground... however i think working people and those who call themselves middle class in Britain are beginning to wake up to what is going on. Perhaps what is needed then is a new language for an old idea (oh i think Giddens called this third way ha ha!)
No, i know people in the private sector cant afford savings let alone pension plans, that is my point. It is time to make business pay, not to expect the state to top up the wages of those paid minimum wage through working tax credits. as for Ireland i know they are very good over there, a friend of mine' sister from Donegal recently retired and will get an excellent pension as she should do after 40 years of public service as should someone who has done 40+ years for Penneys or whatever.
Neo liberal economic policy by successive government means that there is no longer a job for life in the UK public secotr, huge swathes of it are 'outsourced' to private companies who do not see providing a service as their raison d'etre but profit, i mean the prison service for fecks sake!workers are re employed and then suprise suprise given worse terms and conditions and there is often no union.
Hello my name is Neil Tennant and I'm Chris Lowe and we're of the Pet Shop Boys.
People like me paid into the system via an agreement between the company and the unions. they have to honor that for my generation of employees. so,inform the next generation of employees they are talking on a job without a pension. you know thats coming. anyways its projected I will be getting about 2500 a month.cripes sake, it will cost about that much in gas for our truck.
The reason it is so easy for the elite to divide and conquer working people with their public sector v. private sector context is because working people in the private sector are expected to compete with workers in countries with no human rights. Obviously, this is impossible. You cannot compete with somebody earning a bowl of rice a day. You cannot compete with a workforce that has no health and safety standards. That's why there has been a constant push-back on basic worker rights, basic standards of employment, and basic trade union protection under the guise of "competitiveness" and "flexibility".
Capitalism is entirely rational. The only way to compete is with a level playing field - and to level that playing field the Chinese either raise their standards to the standards of the West, or we reduce ours to their level. Guess which one the right wants.
In that sense, the only solution is not to trade with human rights abusers like China. There is no competing with Chinese manufacturing unless you can beat them on quality. Germany might beat them on quality, but only on luxury high-quality goods. Common-or-garden manufacturing is dead. The European Union is big enough to cope without Chinese trade on these terms if it has the political will (of course, it doesn't). A small number of individuals are getting fantastically rich due to trade with China. However, the ordinary worker is losing out. Barriers to trade will reduce the wealth of these fabulously rich individuals, but ordinary people would benefit as "outsourcing" to corporatist nightmare states like China would be disincentivised and a decent wage would be paid to people which would actually allow them to buy the goods that people are producing. Western leaders are seen to "mention human rights" when the Chinese are in town, but in truth there is no genuine will to tackle them.
Despite my logic for finding some of the unions' demands unfair on non-unionised private sector workers, I still hope that the unions can win a few battles against the odds, Ragga. If it wasn't for unions, working people - unionised or not - would be working for that bowl of rice here too.
Drico.
The pale kid that hides in the attic behind his PC...
