History lesson for america!

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GalataPSB · #1 Post by **GalataPSB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 2:26 pm

Belatedly, the House's History Lesson

By Dana Milbank
Thursday, October 11, 2007; Page A02

Wondering why Congress can't reach a consensus on the Iraq war? Well, consider that our lawmakers are still divided on the Turkish-Armenian conflict. Of 1915.

With bullets flying in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2007, the House Foreign Affairs Committee sat down yesterday to resolve a pressing issue: whether to pass a resolution declaring that the killing of hundreds of thousands of Armenians 92 years ago qualifies as genocide

Ankara insists this is nobody's business but the Turks'. But the history-minded House knows better.

"I consider myself a friend of Turkey, but friends don't let friends commit crimes against humanity," said Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.) in his stinging rebuke of the Ottoman Empire.

Nor was Rep. Brad Sherman (D-Calif.) afraid to call a sultan a sultan. He spoke of a need to "speak truth to Turkey" about the 1915 situation.

"Genocide is genocide, and there's no way of sugarcoating it," agreed Rep. Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.).

Indeed not. Only 92 years late, the intrepid members of the committee voted 27 to 21 to condemn the Young Turks of 1915. The Armenians in the audience, wearing stickers urging "Stop the Cycle of Genocide," erupted in applause and tears. Among the celebrants: Catholicos Karekin II, supreme patriarch of the Armenian Church.

Amid such fervor, only a minority of lawmakers dared to argue that it was hardly worth antagonizing Turkey, a crucial ally in Iraq and a rare Muslim friend, over long-ago atrocities perpetrated by long-dead rulers of a long-defunct empire.

"This is crazy," remarked Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.), who once shot a watermelon as part of his probes of Bill Clinton. "We're in the middle of two wars and we've got troops over there that are at risk, and we're talking about kicking the one ally that's helping us over there in the face."

Then there was the statute-of-limitations conundrum. If it's within Congress's authority to be the arbiter of the Armenian genocide, will it next confront the Romans for the rape of the Sabine women, or the Greeks for sacking Troy? And if attacking the Ottomans, why not weigh in on the siege of Constantinople in 1453?

"Whether it is the Ottoman Empire, the Japanese Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire or, indeed, the Roman Empire, I mean, we could go on for a long time condemning the atrocities committed under each," pointed out Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.).

And maybe they will. Chairman Tom Lantos (D-Calif.) pointed out that the committee has already probed the enslavement of "comfort women" by imperial Japan. Rep. Gregory Meeks (D-N.Y.) announced yesterday that he will soon introduce legislation on atrocities against American Indians.

Ostensibly, the debate was about morality (many proponents noted that Hitler was emboldened by the silence on the Armenian genocide) vs. national security (several opponents observed that most U.S. air cargo to Iraq goes through Turkish bases).

While nobody disputed that something very much like genocide happened to the Armenians 92 years ago, support for the resolution tended to reflect the size of the Armenian population in the lawmakers' districts. All 10 committee members from California (where the census counts 231,777 Armenians) voted aye, while both members from Indiana (total Armenians: 904) voted no. The Californian chairman, Lantos, warned that the measure could cause U.S. troops "to pay an even heavier price" -- then voted yes.

Ultimately, the threat to national security couldn't compete with four women in wheelchairs in the front row wearing pink stickers announcing "I'm a survivor" of the genocide. "I don't like Turkey -- they are animals there," (*edit A RACIST WHORE) reported Perouz Kalousdian, 97. She left Turkey in 1916 but remembers it clearly; "they came and they took all my uncles," she said.

For lawmakers, the memories were rather less fresh and personal. Lantos reached into the history books and pulled out quotes from the U.S. ambassador to the Ottoman Empire.

"Thank you for your outstanding review of history," Sherman told the chairman.

"Very fair summary of the history," agreed Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-N.Y.).

Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-Tex.) thought it would be better if "everyone opens their historic books."

I don't pretend to be a professional historian," demurred Rep. Howard Berman (D-Calif.).

But Rep. Ron Klein (D-Fla.) insisted. "We are all students of history," he told colleagues.

Not all students of logic, however. Sherman, arguing passionately for the label of genocide, acknowledged that the measure was "an irritant to our relationship with Turkey" but then concluded: "That's the best reason to vote for it."

The debate didn't improve from there. Rep. Albio Sires (D-N.J.) complained that "I feel like I have a Turkish sword over my head," while Rep. Joseph Crowley (D-N.Y.) contributed a profound thought: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Likewise, Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.), arguing in favor of the resolution, offered some pithy advice to the feuding Turks and Armenians. "Move on," he recommended.

If only Congress could do the same.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02493.html

GalataPSB · #2 Post by **GalataPSB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 2:26 pm

America should look at their dirty and bloody history. America or X country cant judge Turkish history..

5 million native americans were killed... It is a real genocide..

After 2ww,

1953: USA overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. And install Shah as dictator. CIA operation AJAX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

1954: USA overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_PBSUCCESS

1963: USA back assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.

1963-1975: American military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia.

September 11, 1973: USA stages coup in Chile. Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.

1977: USA backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.

1980's: USA trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives then $3 billion.

1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras". 30,000 Nicaraguans die.

1982: USA provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.

1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. USA invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties.

1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from USA and with USA blessing.

1991: USA enter Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.

1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.

1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. UN estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.

2000-01: USA gives Taliban-rules Afghanistan $245 million in "aid".

+ 800000 iraqis were killed in iraq...

GalataPSB · #3 Post by **GalataPSB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 2:29 pm

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/index.html

THE TURTH :

1 - in 1915, There were 600.000-800.000 armenians in Ottoman Empire...In 1ww, Turks were making war against
British Army + French Army + Italian Army + Anzacs + Greeks+Arabs.... During this time, Armenians that live in Turkey
started killing Turks / collabrating with britts french italians and russians.... Ottoman government + Turkish People pushed these bugs to Syria... Of course We killed a lot of armenians in the 1ww..They killed Turks too.Nobody is talking about Turkish genocide... For our Independence, WE DID.. If the same things happens, we do it again...

2 - in 1980, Armenian diaspora said : "Turks killed 500.000 Armenians" In 1990s Armenians said : "Turks killed 1 million
armenians" And now armenians says :" 1.5 millions armenians were killed".. 2 days ago An american parliament said :
"3 million Armenians were killed" Who said American education system is the best.. Can This bastard count from 1 untill 5 ?

3 - In the world history, First time, a country opened all official state archives. Turkey has opened all Ottoman
archives about Armenians.. There are more than 1 millions documents..We wanted all historians to come and search the truth.

4 - We wanted Armenia to open all archives.. They never opened..

5 - We wanted America + France + Russia+ The Uk + Italia to opne all archives.. They never opened it..

6 - We wanted armenia to go to international courts to discuss this problem..They never said "Ok"

7 -The funniest things is : in 1915-1923 minister of ottoman internal affair was an armenian.

We, Turks, are always ready to face our history.. We are proud of our history..America France or X country cant judge our history...

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/index.html

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/ermeni_sorunu ... etleri.htm

Azeri Genocide! (I am sure(?) Americans will accept it too)

http://www.karabakh.co.uk/video2.shtml in 1990s... not too far..

GalataPSB · #4 Post by **GalataPSB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 2:40 pm

America!!

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2007/10/11/son/songal201.asp

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galer ... 6754&rid=2

dVTB · #5 Post by **dVTB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 3:13 pm

Edited.

GalataPSB · #6 Post by **GalataPSB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 3:42 pm

dVTB wrote: I seriously think Turkey should acknowledge and accept its own mistakes, rather than pointing at other countries. This is the only way to learn from them, to prevent them from happening again and to move forward as a nation.

1 - We admit, We were not great about Human rights in 1980s +1990s..But now, It is better.I never compare my country With your country or Denmark/Sweden/Germany and the others.

2 - We say : " We are ready to face it" "Let`s go to international courts to solve this problem" " (To armenia) Open your official state archives" If it is a genocide, We are ready for everything...Because we know, Our anchasters never made any shamefull things..We never became Imperialists..We are ready

3 - Does America have a right to judge Turkish history?

4 - We made war against the strongest armies of the world in 1ww, British + French + Italian + Russian +Anzacs... Armenians colabrated with them, and started killing Turks.. We pushed them to Syria + Iran..If the samer things happens, We do it again..

5 - Imagine a war..A war between Holland vs Russia + France + England +Italia e.t.c
During this time, Arabs/Africans in Holland (your foreign friends, neighbours) collabrates with Russians and starts killing your soldiers /people/your family.. What would your recation become in this war? What would you do for your independence?

6- """"For instance: Germany did horrible things during World War 2. Millions of Jews were killed, as well as many people in neighbouring countries. But Germany acknowledges its past. Learned from their mistakes. Didn't commit such cruelties ever since. """"

We dont accept.. Because we didnt do it...In a war, They killed us, We killed them..Itw asnt systematic. Because there was no a regular army.. If we made a genocide, We started killiing minister of Armenian rooted ottoman internal affair...

dVTB · #7 Post by **dVTB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 3:54 pm

Edited.

GalataPSB · #8 Post by **GalataPSB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 4:08 pm

dVTB wrote:
GalataPSB wrote:1 - We admit, We were not great about Human rights in 1980s +1990s..But now, It is better.I never compare my country With your country or Denmark/Sweden/Germany and the others.

You shouldn't compare it with any country at all, is my main point.
Europeans are always doing it....

GalataPSB wrote:2 - We say : " We are ready to face it" "Let`s go to international courts to solve this problem" " (To armenia) Open your official state archives" If it is a genocide, We are ready for everything...Because we know, Our anchasters never made any shamefull things..We never became Imperialists..We are ready.

A court is not going to solve the fact that thousands of people were murdered.
I am sure, courts will see the fact that thousands of Turkish people were murdered by armenian gangs..May be they will talk about Turkish genocide...

GalataPSB wrote:3 - Does America have a right to judge Turkish history?
.
No. But nor do you have the right to judge American history then. .
If Americans have the right to judge my histor, I must have the same right too..
and I am not talking about people or historians.I am talking about Governments..American gov cant judge my history. Turkish Gov.cant judge American history..

GalataPSB wrote:4 - We made war against the strongest armies of the world in 1ww, British + French + Italian + Russian +Anzacs... Armenians colabrated with them, and started killing Turks.. We pushed them to Syria + Iran..If the samer things happens, We do it again..
.
You have a right to defend your country, I don't deny that. My point was meant to say that whether or not the mass murder of Armenians was 'part of a war' or pure genocide, is not really relevant. The crucial point would be: do you acknowledge what happened and do you learn from mistakes..

Yes you can be right...We must give alot of money to Jewish Lobby in America next time..

JSDOUVRES · #9 Post by **JSDOUVRES** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 4:59 pm

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, We all know Turkey is great and obviously innocent and America are the real evil in the world. Yawn.....

Great anti american internet research once more, must have taken a while. Very original.

GalataPSB · #10 Post by **GalataPSB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 5:01 pm

JSDOUVRES wrote:Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, We all know Turkey is great and obviously innocent and America are the real evil in the world. Yawn.....

Great anti american internet research once more, must have taken a while. Very original.

Jsdouvres came! Yawn!
jsdouvres talked! Yawn!
jdsouvres went! Yawn!

respect ???

----

at least, We are brave enough to face our history!

JSDOUVRES · #11 Post by **JSDOUVRES** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 5:36 pm

GalataPSB wrote:
JSDOUVRES wrote:Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, We all know Turkey is great and obviously innocent and America are the real evil in the world. Yawn.....

Great anti american internet research once more, must have taken a while. Very original.

Jsdouvres came! Yawn!
jsdouvres talked! Yawn!
jdsouvres went! Yawn!

respect ???
----

at least, We are brave enough to face our history!

Brave enough to face your history? Are you sure?

GalataPSB · #12 Post by **GalataPSB** » Fri 12 Oct 2007, 7:27 pm

JSDOUVRES wrote:
GalataPSB wrote:
JSDOUVRES wrote:Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, We all know Turkey is great and obviously innocent and America are the real evil in the world. Yawn.....

Great anti american internet research once more, must have taken a while. Very original.

Jsdouvres came! Yawn!
jsdouvres talked! Yawn!
jdsouvres went! Yawn!

respect ???
----

at least, We are brave enough to face our history!
Brave enough to face your history? Are you sure?

gregf · #13 Post by **gregf** » Sat 13 Oct 2007, 9:26 am

Well said in your first post dVTB.

My country Australia, massacred the Aboriginal people and took their land.

We now have a neo-conservative government that wont acknowledge the past and
shouts down in anger "the black arm band view of history".

The result is they make more mistakes like contributing greatly to Global Warming
and invading Iraq.

The lesson Galata, is to be able to admit ones own mistakes, and learn.
Otherwise we live in denial and become bitter old conservatives.

Admitting mistakes is not about the past, it's about what sort of people we want
to be in the future.

-Greg.

GalataPSB · #14 Post by **GalataPSB** » Sat 13 Oct 2007, 2:48 pm

gregf wrote:Well said in your first post dVTB.

My country Australia, massacred the Aboriginal people and took their land.

We now have a neo-conservative government that wont acknowledge the past and
shouts down in anger "the black arm band view of history".

The result is they make more mistakes like contributing greatly to Global Warming
and invading Iraq.

The lesson Galata, is to be able to admit ones own mistakes, and learn.
Otherwise we live in denial and become bitter old conservatives.

Admitting mistakes is not about the past, it's about what sort of people we want
to be in the future.

-Greg.

You all are prejudiced...

Armenians say : " You did"
We say: "No, Itw asnt a genocide.It is a migration"
Armenians say : "No It is a genocide"

We say : "Let`s go to international courts to solve this problem,If give a name to the event "Genocide", We will admit, and do everything" (Turkish PM said)
Armenians said : "No It is a genocide"

Wer say :" We Opened All official Ottoman state + Military archives..Let`s search it all together..There are more than 1 million documents..."
Armenians say :"It is a genocide"

We say :"If you dont trust our documents, Open your Official State archives to historians.We want to search it"
Armenians say:" It is a genocide"

We say :"Ok! We are ready to trust America + Russia+ The Uk+France+Greece + Italia Stae archives... They should open"
Armenians say:"It is a genocide"

WE DONT TAKE ANY LESSON! Usa and the other imperialists cant give us lesson..
We are proud of our history.If the same things happen, WE do it again for this country/nation!

Regards...

GalataPSB · #15 Post by **GalataPSB** » Sat 13 Oct 2007, 2:50 pm

http://www.karabakh.co.uk/video2.shtml in 1990s... not too far..

gregf?

Is it not a genocide?

+

What about Turkish people who were killed by armenian gangs in 1ww?