A background briefing on the Georgia conflict.

[Danny C]

Interesting initial post Greg. Let me correct you on a few counts.

When Georgia broke from Russia, some large areas were Russian. These people want to rejoin Russia and have been autonomous ever since, much like the Kurds in Iraq.

South Ossetia is not entirely full of "Russians" (or more accurately, Ossetians). A third of the people living there are ethnic Georgians.

Georgia has been re-armed by the Bush administration and this week attacked the Russian area (South Ossetia).

Factual error here. Despite its de facto independence, South Ossetia is legally part of Georgia. You can't "attack" part of your own country.

Russia has taken this as a declaration of war and has now mostly retaken South Ossetia. They are also moving troops into another non Russian but independent part of Georgia called Abkhazia.

Russia moved troops into Abkhazia (an area they had already ethnically cleansed of 300,000 Georgians) months ago under the pretext of working on a railway project. It's now clear they were laying the groundwork for an attack on Georgia.

The Russians will not be trying to take the rest of Georgia

I do hope you are right...

This is by no means of a justification of Russian tactics. They are retaliating harder then necessary, and causing unnecessary civilian deaths. The Georgians have offered cease fire and Putin should accept that. Instead Putin is trying to make an example of Georgia. Georgia has the right not to be "leant on" by Russia.

Russia wants to punish Georgia for seeking NATO membership. Russia intends to weaken the pro-Western democratically-elected government of Georgia, and see another Kremlin-friendly puppet in power there.

I think Ukraine will be the next to be punished by Russia for being pro-Western. Russia already attempted to assassinate the Ukrainian president by dioxin poisoning.

Yes, Putin is a bully. But it was pretty stupid of Georgia's leaders to attack Russia.

We can say that it was foolish, but Russia has been provoking Georgia for some time. This operation is not about Georgia suddenly deciding to reclaim its breakaway regions - the Russians have been doing all they can to escalate tensions in the area for a long time.

Last year, a Russian jet dropped a bomb near Tbilisi in an attempt to destroy a Georgian radar installation. In April, the Russians announced they would be opening diplomatic relations with South Ossetia and Abkhazia, a violation of their supposedly neutral role as "peacekeeper" in the disputed regions. Then (as previously mentioned) they moved troops into Abkhazia to work on a "railway project". They started shooting down Georgian aerial drones. Russian-backed secessionist forces attempted to assassinate the head of the pro-Tbilisi provisional administration of South Ossetia.

It's also clear that Russia has been funding and arming secessionist forces in South Ossetia and Abkhazia for years.

How can Russia turn around and claim that Georgia is the antagonist here?

If Georgians want to be free from Russia, they must respect areas that want to be "free" from them.

If Russia believe people have the right to self-determination, why will they not permit Chechnya to be free? It's double standards.

Russia is run by some very bad people who think nothing of killing their own people and blaming it on foreign powers or assassinating journalists who are critical of their regime.

Russia is attempting to build a New Soviet Empire. I think the West needs to be vigilant, and to make sure that Russia does not manage to overturn democratic reforms in its former republics.

Russia should be kicked out of the Council of Europe and G8. Ukraine needs to be brought under the NATO nuclear umbrella. Russia cannot be allowed to bully its neighbours like this.

[df118junkie]

This, of course, is not the true reason for the conflict.
Major oil transportation pipelines run through Georgia that Russia now wishes to "control" and have their piece of the world oil price scam and money making machine.

Look past the propaganda people.

[Danny C]

This, of course, is not the true reason for the conflict.
Major oil transportation pipelines run through Georgia that Russia now wishes to "control" and have their piece of the world oil price scam and money making machine.

There is an element of this, but it's not the whole story. Russia isn't solely motivated by a desire to control energy policy in the Caucasus. It wants to punish Georgia (and Ukraine) for "sentimental", nationalistic reasons. Georgia was the birthplace of Stalin; Ukraine was the birthplace of the Russian people. Russia hates the fact that these countries are independent, and despises their pro-Western governments.

[gregf]

Hi Danny,

I agree with what you say. The initial post had to be concise and details get dropped.
It was to counter the big mis-assumptions at that time.

It is a fact that victors break up defeated nations as punishment.
It is inevitable that such countries will spend decades reversing that.
So it is a strategic mistake to think of all former republics as "independent" countries.

Why is it important to understand that ?

]故曰：知彼知己，百戰不殆；不知彼而知己，一勝一負；不知彼，不知己，每戰必殆。(故曰：知彼知己，百战不殆；不知彼而知己，一胜一负；不知彼，不知己，每战必殆。)

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will fight without danger in battles.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.

George W. Bush, is the one man on the planet least likely to have read The Art Of War.
And so he just got his ass whipped.

[Drem]

Don't drink beer.

Well, it's good to know that we share at least one more similarity, apart from being humans and petheads. Sadly, the rest we don't yet...

I don't pick on Russia.

It's not inconsistent to what you usually write in almost every threads, where people talks about russians, Russia or USSR.

I just think the way your country is acting is appalling.

You mean, we didn't attack georgian forces first, with bombs and bullets, filled with depleted uranium? Didn't kill ossetian kids and elders for Saakashvilli troops? Didn't bomb jauntily live blocks in searching of the weapon of mass destruction (i.e., petroleum)?
Consider that we even didn't enter in Tbilisi. All our troops is did - is destroying few military bases and bomber airdromes, builded for american money. I know, Saakashvilli now tends to see russian tanks even in his bathroom. He worried for nothing, his bodyguards will save him from bugs in his shower room.
Georgia spends more and more money on military budget for few last years. Probably, ~1 billion dollars will be expended on new weapons in next year. Where such small country without any natural resources, advance industry, big internation business and with average science could find so much resources to buy so many weapons? Something to mind about.
One russian proverb this time: "Who would come to us with sword, will died by this sword". We're peaceful nation, who knows price of war: so many fathers and sons never return to their wives and mothers, defending our land and good name with their blood.

Scum. Sub human scum.

Don't pick, eh? Wait, you're actually right! You don't pick on Russia: you just talks like Nazi here.
When people starts to insult their interlocutors or opponents rudely, I always regards it as lack of real arguments and accusations.

I'm not saying I'm 100% agree with our government's words and actions: Medvedev, by the way, says some unparliamentary things on TV last day. And I think, our leaders could save more lives in South Ossetia. People in Tschinvalli begun to document georgian troops "deeds" - killed and burned to death citizens, mutilated dead bodies, destroyed houses, scorched georgian tanks and etc. I didn't believe that USA will allow us to begin internation process against georgian leader for war crimes he did or permit, but hopes die last, especially, when so much people died before.
But I see propaganda in both sides of this conflict. And I never let anyone to fool me. I don't want to make you trust me as well, I just hope that their lies wouldn't become your eyes, for rest of our lives.
Think oneself, don't let TV or press become your brains.

[Drem]

Excuse me for double post. Some corrections to posts of Danny C:

South Ossetia is not entirely full of "Russians" (or more accurately, Ossetians). A third of the people living there are ethnic Georgians.

Maybe, but 90% of South Ossetia population also have russian citizenship. Second, north part of Ossetia is territory of Russian Federation. And not only ossetians suffer from Georgia's recent attack: ethnic georgians and russians was killed and injured during first days of war, before Russia sent reinforcements to help our peacemakers division (13 peacemakers were killed in first days, defending innocent civilians and understandings, avowed years ago).

Factual error here. Despite its de facto independence, South Ossetia is legally part of Georgia. You can't "attack" part of your own country.

Yes, that right. You may call it "to gag separatist nation with tanks and bombs". And "genocide", as 3% of population of South Ossetia was killed by georgian troops.

It's now clear they were laying the groundwork for an attack on Georgia.

As I wrote above, Georgia's war budget increases heavily after Saakashvilli's "election", and it continues to grow. Who's preparing to attack who?

Russia wants to punish Georgia for seeking NATO membership. Russia intends to weaken the pro-Western democratically-elected government of Georgia, and see another Kremlin-friendly puppet in power there.

Even if this were the case, Kremlin-puppet seems to be more better and in its place there, than Pentagon-puppet. Because we live together, side by side, for centuries, we know each other well and we understand situation, as we've see it every day. If Georgia wants to become USA satellite and playground, we wouldn't mind - please, just don't spit on our direction, like everything now is possible to do with us and history of our relations for you. Centuries ago, georgian tzar begged to russian tzar for inclusion of Georgia's lands in Russian Empire - because georgians hadn't enough power to defend their lives and lands from mongols. In XXI century, new georgian tzar decided to move to another overlord, and think it's time to paid back to his previous master for all defence and help that georgians got from us. Very unlike georgian code of honour, georgians we knew was brave, extremely fair and sincerely upright men, appreciated terms of friendship and brotherhood. We highly respected and loved them for that. They never killed sleeping, unarmed people and never murdered innocent childrens.

Georgia was the birthplace of Stalin

You dare to say that? Oh no, Georgia is bad country too?

Ukraine was the birthplace of the Russian people. Russia hates the fact that these countries are independent, and despises their pro-Western governments.

That's right. First line, I mean: it's our brother-nation. And georgian as well, you know? I think it's very clear why we cries when someone else incites brother against brother.

So it is a strategic mistake to think of all former republics as "independent" countries.

Try to dissect and dismember a living creature to see, if its extremities and organs could live separately from each other.

If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.

It's diagnosis for american guy that became president of small caucasian country and think he's now the master of universe. Real sadness is that he endangered not himself, but nations he leads to fratricidal massacre.

Danny C becomes current best candidate for Georgia's prize of brainwashing: bouquet of "georgian flowers" - M16, Uzi and AKM, comes with some C-4 and packaged in barbed wire (oh, sorry, I called it Georgia's when in reality its Richard Cheney's prize). Sorry, Undertaker, it's seems like you'll get only silver on this Olympic Games of Propaganda. Or we should call it "true beginning of the Cold War II"?

[gregf]

Drem,
Yes, Georgia was stupid to start the war ; but it was a trap set for them by Putin.
What Danny said was correct. Putin is trying to get influence in a rump Georgian state.
And I would not trust the stories of atrocities against Ossetian people.

Scum. Sub human scum.

You realise you are using Adolph Hitler's pet phrase ?


We need to understand the borders of Eastern Europe are a mess.

Think about it. If the U.K. was broken up into different states and the official
language was changed. Your kids now being taught in a different language at school.
You unable to talk to officials unless you learn their language. For people
in many parts of Eastern Europe that is reality.

This is going to cause conflict or be the excuse for conflict.
We cant solve any problems if we dont understand them.

[Drem]

but it was a trap set for them by Putin.

Because of USA secret involvements in this conflict, if it was trap, Putin and Bush (i.e., Cheney and McCain) just made traps for each other. Unlike USA, we bait it without human lives. Lives of our brothers. Lives of our soldiers. Georgia was warned not to solve its problems this way.

I would not trust the stories of atrocities against Ossetian people.

Well, I have some doubts about it too, as I said above, I always take words and positions with healthy scepticism, but we may recall Iraq, and what some american soldiers did there with irakish prisoner. CIA for long time tried to denial.
Ossetians and georgian have long, tangled, sanguinary history of relations, which was urged forward with Soviet Union's collapse. You may imagine what people could do with their "blood enemy". This problem can't be solved in five minutes and with "roses", as some people in Western Europe would think. And if almost all of rest of the world didn't have even a little doubt in words of Saakashvilli, I think we may stand on our government's position. Before we've got any real proof of disproof. I wait for proof of our leaders' statement, but if it will be proved that there was some false in their words - if less people died in this conflict, less brother-ossetians and brother-georgians died these days - I just would be MUCH more happy, than seeing pictures of dead bodies...

[Drem]

Yes, Georgia was stupid to start the war

Greg, excuse me, but one more thing I would like to tell you: nations & countries never should be accused for what their leaders do. Georgia is not stupid. Georgians are very wise men. I beg to you, please don't say thing like this.
True riddle is: how such wise nation permit such astounding political fool to become their leader?

[gregf]

Yes, my apologies.
I was lazy and did not look up Mikheil Saakashvili.
And the point is valid. His miscalculation will bring about what Putin wants.

It would be interesting to know what Condoleeza Rice said to him before the war.
And what Bush is saying now.

[Parkol]

The video of American program where two people talk about what has happened in Osetia. The commentator wasn't ready for that and tried to stop them.
Let's remember about democracy and freedom - about things that USA talk too often.
I have to remind you that Georgia killed 2100 people that night. After that many papers say that Russia hit Ossetia.
About 30 000 people escaped from Chinvali to Russia. Imagine 1941.
Germany attacked USSR and Russian people escaped... no not deeper to Russia, but to... yes... Germany, to enemy. Absurd. The same thing is if Russia attacked Ossetia their citizens would never escape to Russia.
Just click on one of these video and you will see that interview in English.

http://fishki.net/comment.php?id=39611

YouTube wanted to stop rating of that video and you see two different numbers.
On the screen you see 212390 and in the right corner - 41 views.
As you understand USA wanted make low rating of that because all you hear is truth.

These two people are American but they lived in Ossetia and of course I hope American government won't make them hurt.
All I see is America tries not to let think their citizens just they need to know. No analyze, no thoughts.
I saw a guy in London in the front of Parliament who screamed words like: “Stop war in Iraq, 2 000 000 people killed”, people passed him by and hasn’t noticed him. I made a small film about him and make a track, that will be called “Contrast” one day.

[Loins Of London]

Interesting factoid courtesy of Alistair Campbell:

I've just finished reading his Blair Years diaries and he pretty much confirms quite explicitly that Georgia have been almost as bad for training anti-Russian terrorists as Chechnya.