Things are changing

[York Minster]

Drico accuses you of posting a litany of conjecture, supposition and paranoia and you respond with more of the same. Really? That's the best you've got?

Oh and eyewitness testimony is THE WORST kind of evidence for anything. It's been proven time and again that human beings are not to be trusted. Our system of perception is based on a series of mental shortcuts that predict what will happen based on experience of how the world usually works. This is how magicians can so easily fool you. You don't see what actually happened you see what your brain was expecting to happen. Worse than this, your memory is a ductile thing. We all tend to change and adapt our memories so that they form a narrative that seems coherent to us. We can even invent memories of things that never happened given the right conditions.

Considering this, how can you trust eyewitness testimony of the what must have been the most confusing and abnormal event in the lives of anyone there? Knowing how the human mind can both misunderstand sensory input that is out of the ordinary and reconstruct it to try to make sense afterwards, how can you be sure that what any WTC survivor says is accurate without recorded proof?

It can be clearly seen that the WTC towers fail at the point where the planes struck then collapse down floor by floor. The lower floors do not move until the collapsing upper floors strike them. In a controlled demolition caused by explosions at the base, the whole tower would move down at the same time then collapse in on itself. I mean, look at all the footage you lot post comparing WTC7 to controlled demolitions (ignoring as I pointed out the 6 seconds where that building started to collapse on the opposite side.) Your eyewitness testimony clearly does not match up with the footage of what actually happened. If the explosions they report didn't cause the lower floors to collapse, then what the hell were they for?

Reading this reminded me of a Dateline with Chris Hansen (an American investigative news show, also known for 'To Catch A Predator"). In the show I'm remembering, they would film a stranger on the street being asked for directions from someone. That someone was a dateline NBC worker. In the middle of asking about directions, they would actually change the the NBC worker with another. A bait and switch. Sometimes the switch was one blonde with another. But sometimes it was a women for a man. Of course some people knew instantly something was up and asked what the hell was going on. But a goodly number either acted, or really believed that it was the same person. It was hilarious.

[gregf]

For half a century, the CIA on orders from US oil and defense corporations,
installed and supported dictators who tortured their own people. In south east Asia,
in South America, in the Middle East, in Central America. It still happens.

While the kids argue 9/11 conspiracies, no one discusses the true cause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)

[Your Funny Uncle]

For half a century, the CIA on orders from US oil and defense corporations,
installed and supported dictators who tortured their own people. In south east Asia,
in South America, in the Middle East, in Central America. It still happens.

While the kids argue 9/11 conspiracies, no one discusses the true cause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)

Well I'd suggest that a lot of that was due to paranoia about the spread of socialism/communism as well as for the monetary reasons you suggest, but I'd broadly agree. Actually I was saying to my wife just a few weeks ago that it could easily have been some extremist from Latin America that launched the first terrorist attack on US soil...

You may not have noticed drico saying...

Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that a flagrantly imperial foreign policy conducted for generations resulting in the oppression of millions inevitably unleashed a destructive backlash? There's your plausible motive right there - and not a satanist in sight. It's a less sexy reason for the carnage of September 11, but it's staring anybody who chooses to engage their brain squarely in the face.

If you think the US government was somehow involved in September 11, you'd be right. It created the circumstances for the outrage through its imperialist foreign policy, appalling treatment of Palestine, and myopic self-interest in the middle-east. Yet, you prefer to imagine it had to bomb the towers itself. Because that would be a conspiracy and you are a conspiracist. It's what you do.

Drico.

Of course you also need to factor in the people in the respective countries who were willing to commit these atrocities and create these inequalities for their own gain above that of their countrymen. Basically the world is essentially shitty, and the people with the most power tend to abuse others to their own advantage until something snaps. In recent times it's been the USA but also China, Russia, and before them the other European powers. It's the story of mankind. There'll always be someone willing to abuse power for their own gain.

[whateverman42]

Yes, you explain why you are worried about those who have money. Lovely. But you still can't give any sort of accounting, much less a good accounting, or through accounting of where power lies in the sup court/legislature and executive branch and how it got that way.

I can quote the founding fathers as showing they were deeply Christian religious. I can also quote them heavily to show they were deists. I'm asking you not to just send a few quotes but really make an outline of your argument for us. But can you? I doubt it. You don't have a position based on evidence, you have a position based on a lot of missing links and ignoring other evidence. When you say Obama is not in control, tell us who is, tell us how they got to the point, and give evidence of this from reliable sources. Thanks

Does it matter if I can or not? I don't think how well I debate should convince you one way or another, you're lost in the aesthetic of the thing. If you want a deep history of their infiltration ask Alex Jones, just because I can't doesn't mean its a false premise. And what do you want me to explain? How a secret society gains influence and bribes people?

Yes, anyone can provide out of context quotes, but look at what I provided. Woodrow Wilson said 'I have unwittingly ruined my country' due to the Federal Reserve. And you want me to spoon-feed you speculation? Its not fun debating someone who is clearly in it for the popularity of being seen against it. I thought you were going to stay out of it except for the constitution. Suck up to Drico while you have the chance.

The satanic lizard people, of course. Do keep up, FoF.

Embarassing, and you say I'm oblivious to logic.

It can be clearly seen that the WTC towers fail at the point where the planes struck then collapse down floor by floor. The lower floors do not move until the collapsing upper floors strike them. In a controlled demolition caused by explosions at the base, the whole tower would move down at the same time then collapse in on itself. I mean, look at all the footage you lot post comparing WTC7 to controlled demolitions (ignoring as I pointed out the 6 seconds where that building started to collapse on the opposite side.) Your eyewitness testimony clearly does not match up with the footage of what actually happened. If the explosions they report didn't cause the lower floors to collapse, then what the hell were they for?

What 6 seconds of collapse? Is there a video of this? I would think the 1300 architects and engineers who have studied this event closely would have that taken into account before risking their reputation.

I don't know what the explosions were for, perhaps things didn't run as smoothly as they'd hoped.

gregf, I believe in blowback, in fact Ron Paul did a great job debating Rudy Giuliani at a Republican debate in 2008 on this very issue.



Man I hate Giuliani. But with Ron its reading between the lines. He regularly appears on Alex Jones, who is a staunch inside job man, yet he said he's moved away from these views to the mainstream public. I think he realizes he'd never get elected by publicly outing himself, but he at least wants a new investigation, which is all I ask for.

I don't think I want to continue this, the people who were going to post did and we got our points out, now we're getting repetitive. I'm confident the lurkers will make up their own minds and won't let derision and numbers influence them. Honestly, everyone I've spoken to in real life about this are open-minded. They don't say 'you're delusional', but then they don't frequently post on forums either. They don't find the NWO or anything implausible, not that they buy everything I tell them, but they never question my sanity. These responses get me down a little, but I remember not everyone has so firmly made up their minds about an issue they have about as much clue of as I do.

[Your Funny Uncle]

Watch the footage at the beginning of the NIST video I posted on the BBC thread. I'm not bothered about their explanation afterwards, just watch the raw footage of the collapse near the beginning of the video. You can clearly see the building start to collapse beginning with the large structure on the left hand side then ripple to the right along the roof for 6 seconds before the "free fall" begins. If this is a controlled demolition it's a crappy job.

[whateverman42]

Well my statement stands. The engineers who think its a demolition have seen it and it doesn't sway their opinion. Why would it? A few charges knocked out one part of the building early, then the rest fell symmetrically into a small pile, which is highly unlikely if it fell due to a raging fire.

And it may have been a crappy job, but what of it? They did a crappy job with everything else. Such as announcing its collapsed while standing in front of it.

[Your Funny Uncle]

So... the richest most powerful people in the world who are capable of organising such a massive conspiracy in so many areas can only manage to do a crappy job now? Fine. As you say, let's just leave it.

[glennjridge]

the whole idea is such nonsense.

there never needed to be a demolition anyways anymore than pearl harbor would have required secret demolition teams to make ships totally sink to look more impressive.

the attack in of itself was always enough.

[Flaffer]

well of course the USA Government has never been involved in False Flag operations

[gregf]

You may not have noticed drico saying...

Yes, I did, but I got a little lazy as I am working from the iPad ATM.
Love the iPad but it is a bit hard to quote and scroll.

Happy to acknowledge Drico's and others comments.

Interesting video on Ron Paul, WeM.

[York Minster]

Does it matter if I can or not? I don't think how well I debate should convince you one way or another, you're lost in the aesthetic of the thing. If you want a deep history of their infiltration ask Alex Jones, just because I can't doesn't mean its a false premise. And what do you want me to explain? How a secret society gains influence and bribes people?

Yes, anyone can provide out of context quotes, but look at what I provided. Woodrow Wilson said 'I have unwittingly ruined my country' due to the Federal Reserve. And you want me to spoon-feed you speculation? Its not fun debating someone who is clearly in it for the popularity of being seen against it. I thought you were going to stay out of it except for the constitution. Suck up to Drico while you have the chance.

You're out of discussion points, so you just attack me personally. You tell me I'm debating an issue with you (versus anyone else in this thread?) for popularity? Don't red herring me in that direction, I'm not biting. Drico obviously has some issues with me, I'm sure that will continue (though I maintain my posts have been much improved, no?). Oh, and yes, it does matter if you can or not! And in your world, nothing is a false premise; oh, except that Eminem might have a good track or two.

Oh, and totally 100 percent unrelated to this, but it doesn't need a thread: I saw Danielle Ate The Sandwich in Chicago tonight, so for those who know, she was radiant and sounded fantastic and was hilarious as usual.

[le petit corbusier]

Does it matter if I can or not? I don't think how well I debate should convince you one way or another, you're lost in the aesthetic of the thing. If you want a deep history of their infiltration ask Alex Jones, just because I can't doesn't mean its a false premise. And what do you want me to explain? How a secret society gains influence and bribes people?

Yes, anyone can provide out of context quotes, but look at what I provided. Woodrow Wilson said 'I have unwittingly ruined my country' due to the Federal Reserve. And you want me to spoon-feed you speculation? Its not fun debating someone who is clearly in it for the popularity of being seen against it. I thought you were going to stay out of it except for the constitution. Suck up to Drico while you have the chance.

You're out of discussion points, so you just attack me personally. You tell me I'm debating an issue with you (versus anyone else in this thread?) for popularity? Don't red herring me in that direction, I'm not biting. Drico obviously has some issues with me, I'm sure that will continue (though I maintain my posts have been much improved, no?). Oh, and yes, it does matter if you can or not! And in your world, nothing is a false premise; oh, except that Eminem might have a good track or two.

Oh, and totally 100 percent unrelated to this, but it doesn't need a thread: I saw Danielle Ate The Sandwich in Chicago tonight, so for those who know, she was radiant and sounded fantastic and was hilarious as usual.

Oh, I know Daniel ate the Sandwich! Don't you know Poomplamoose, by the way?