PSB 8th in hit singles list

[dVTB]

No, I'm not, you're simply twisting my words and putting words in my mouth by using a random phrase posted as an answer to a specific topic as an arguement for something totally different.

Anyway, it's pretty pointless arguing with someone whose taste in PSB records is to the contrary of what has statistically proven to be objectively good AND who recently claimed that being gay is about something other than who you sleep with and didn't bother to elaborate.

I'm not twisting your words. You wrote that the Beatles manager had 100% creative input, which DOES indeed seem to suggest that the Beatles themselves had no creative input whatsoever. However, if I misread your words, please correct me. Did the Beatles have any creative input in their own music?

Furthermore, acknowledging the contribution of the Beatles to pop music hasn't got anything to do with taste (and certainly not my personal taste of PSB singles). For instance: I don't really like the Rolling Stones, but I do respect them and acknowledge their contribution to music.

As for the being gay/PSB in Iran thing: It seems you don't see the difference between 'being gay' and 'being sexually active'. Your problem, not mine. Being gay (or straight) is a part of yourself and it's about love as well. Being sexually active is about who you decide to sleep with. It's not necessarily one and the same. PSB are openly gay. If they go to Iran, they can very well do so, without hiring rent boys or whatever. But that's not what it is about. Iran is a country where many muslim fundamentalists live. I said before and will repeat: their life would be at serious danger there.

[Zeus On The Loose]

-The Beatles wrote most of the music but their manager had 100% control of the marketing, imagery, chose which songs were to be singles, artwork, clothes, hair, promotion etc. which was an intergrated part of the Beatles phenomenon since day one. PSB controlled all of the above from the very beginning and in fact, acted against the wishes of their manager as has been widely documented. Claiming the Beatles were THAT huge based on the strength of the record alone is ridiculous. There has never been a pop phenomenon that did not rely heavily on imagery , promotion etc. If you think that the Beatles would have been as big if they were all fat and ugly and didn't slave away endless promoting and doing publicity stunts etc. while releasing the exact same record, you're deluding yourself.

-I acknowledge the contribution of the Beatles in pop culture but I don't think they were the best pop writers ever nor that everyone else wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the Beatles. Similarly, I acknowledge the importance of Hippocrates in medicine but I don't go around claiming medicine wouldn't have happened without him or that he was the best doctor ever, which is how a lot of people insist that the Beatles were. They had a far bigger impact on pop imagery, promotion and multi-media marketing than they had on the music itself. And in that regard, they were a lot like the SGs, whom you may not remember a lot of records at the moment but as a phenomenon they have defined pop culture as it has been the last 10 years immensely.

-Love is a universal concept that is above genders. Loving a man does not make you gay. Sleeping with a man does. I have slept with FAR more men than I have with women and I have never been in love with a man(except for myself, of course). I have been in love with women twice though. What does that make me?

The UK is also a country where many muslim fundamentalists live, their life is also in danger there.

[popfreak]

This is from the official Brian Epstein site. I think it backs up the Manufactured argument. Obviously not all will agree.



It was decided that Brian would be the Beatles' manager at a meeting on December 10, 1961. Their first contract was for a five year period. The contract was formally signed at Pete Best's house on January 24, 1962, with Alistair Taylor as witness, although Brian, himself, didn't sign it. When asked why later, Brian answered "Well, if they ever want to tear it up, they can hold me but I can't hold them."

Brian smartened up the Beatles' stage appearance by putting them in matching suits and he instructed them not to smoke or swear on stage. Brian also encouraged the boys to make a rather theatrical synchronized bow at the conclusion of each song when performing in concert or on television. All of the Beatles went along with their new image although there was some initial very minor grumbling from John and George.

During his 'demythologize the Beatles' phase in 1970, John made references to how these image changes had somehow "tamed the real Beatles" and that he'd been against it at the time. However, most contemporary reports - and indeed recent McCartney comments - note that at the time, all of the Beatles (including John) were happy to follow Epstein's shrewd advice, particularly when it proved to be 100% effective. The reality is that in the climate of the early 60's no British or American TV show would have given the Beatles (or any other pop group) even five seconds of air time looking as they did pre-Brian.


Now that he was signed to be their manager, it was Brian's job to get them a recording contract. He used the clout of his family's record stores in Liverpool to get meetings with all the major British record companies. But the Beatles were rejected by every label including the two biggest companies, EMI and Decca. Brian finally secured a contract for the Beatles in June 1962 when they were signed by George Martin, head of one of EMI's smallest labels, Parlophone.

George Martin commented later that he signed the Beatles in considerable part because of Epstein’s enthusiasm. He thought that the Beatles had promise, but he was not entirely convinced by their talent. However, he was very impressed by Epstein’s conviction that the Beatles would be world famous.


Shortly after they signed with EMI, John, Paul and George (who had been together as the nucleus of the group since 1958) gave Brian the unpleasant job of telling drummer Pete Best that they wanted him out of the group, to be replaced by Ringo. Brian was uncomfortable but accomplished this difficult task.

In a very real sense Epstein had now passed his ‘audition’ with the Beatles. In a mere six months he had secured them the record contract that they had desired for so long. And he had proven his ability to handle the most awkward of managerial tasks.

But Brian's first love was always the Beatles. His joy in life was seeing their ever-burgeoning success and ensuring their happiness. This devotion to work was often at the expense of his personal life.

In April 1964, at the age of 29, he hired Derek Taylor (who subsequently became the Beatles’ legendary publicist) to co-write his autobiography A Cellarful of Noise which was published in October of that year. Together with writer Ray Coleman’s Brian Epstein (the only biography of him) - published in 1989 - these two books constitute the most authoritive sources for information about the man who guided the Beatles to becoming the most successful popular artists of all time.

During the time Brian managed the Beatles, they enjoyed the greatest success that any popular artists had ever achieved. Their career trajectory was meteoric. There was not a single reversal of fortune in the entire 5 3/4 years. Once he died the Beatles became embroiled in a tangle of conflicts, money squabbles and personal jealousies. They had lost the one man who united them and who was capable of resolving their differences.

From the first Beatles success until his tragic death in August 1967, Brian took care of every aspect of the Beatles' career. When he died the difference was immediately felt. While the Beatles continued to make magnificent music, their business affairs rapidly crumbled. Within two years of Brian's death the end of the Beatles was clearly in sight. By 1970 it was all over.

[Eldritch]

Although most of it is undeniably true, the official Brian Epstein site is hardly the most objective source to consult on this matter. It's quite remarkable too, that despite Epstein dying 38 years ago, The Beatles' legacy just keeps on thriving. Is he pulling the strings from behind the grave?

[dVTB]

-The Beatles wrote most of the music but their manager had 100% control of the marketing, imagery, chose which songs were to be singles, artwork, clothes, hair, promotion etc. which was an intergrated part of the Beatles phenomenon since day one. PSB controlled all of the above from the very beginning and in fact, acted against the wishes of their manager as has been widely documented. Claiming the Beatles were THAT huge based on the strength of the record alone is ridiculous. There has never been a pop phenomenon that did not rely heavily on imagery , promotion etc. If you think that the Beatles would have been as big if they were all fat and ugly and didn't slave away endless promoting and doing publicity stunts etc. while releasing the exact same record, you're deluding yourself.

-I acknowledge the contribution of the Beatles in pop culture but I don't think they were the best pop writers ever nor that everyone else wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the Beatles. Similarly, I acknowledge the importance of Hippocrates in medicine but I don't go around claiming medicine wouldn't have happened without him or that he was the best doctor ever, which is how a lot of people insist that the Beatles were. They had a far bigger impact on pop imagery, promotion and multi-media marketing than they had on the music itself. And in that regard, they were a lot like the SGs, whom you may not remember a lot of records at the moment but as a phenomenon they have defined pop culture as it has been the last 10 years immensely.

-Love is a universal concept that is above genders. Loving a man does not make you gay. Sleeping with a man does. I have slept with FAR more men than I have with women and I have never been in love with a man(except for myself, of course). I have been in love with women twice though. What does that make me?

The UK is also a country where many muslim fundamentalists live, their life is also in danger there.

1: The Beatles looking fat is a totally fictive situation, since the Beatles had the luck to be considered good-looking. So had Pet Shop Boys, by the way. They have many female fans for that reason. Being good-looking doesn't necessarily make you a manufactured artist.

The fact that a manager had a big influence on the Beatles' career, doesn't change anything about the quality of the songs Lennon and McCartney wrote. The Beatles recorded 214 different songs between 1962 and 1970, a huge majority of which were written by themselves. How many songs did the Spice Girls 'co-write' again?

What do you *blame* the Beatles for? That they dressed up in stupid outfits, for Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band? - Ever seen the Pet Shop Boys video's for Can You Forgive Her and Go West?

2: Nonsense. Tell my why hardly anyone remembers as much as 5 Spice Girls tracks, why many Beatles songs are classics. Tell me why (asked this before) so many other artists covered tracks by the Beatles? Because of their good imaginary? Give me a break.

3: Complicated.

4: Iran is an islamic state, controlled by orthodox muslims with the Sharia as their law. The comparison with the UK is almost as ridiculous as The Beatles vs The Spice Girls....

[Glenny4]

PSB & The Beatles are the GODS of music.

nothing more to be said.

[Eldritch]

PSB & The Beatles are the GODS of music.

nothing more to be said.

Thank you for that insight, Greil Marcus.

[Zeus On The Loose]

dVTB, there have been far more British victims of Islamic fundamentalism in London than in Tehran, so Neil and Chris are in far greater danger there.

And I don't recall Neil or Chris ever winning Most Fanciable Male on Smash Hits polls, so I can't see how they were considered good looking...unless you're psb-freak.

[thomashenry]

And I don't recall Neil or Chris ever winning Most Fanciable Male on Smash Hits polls, so I can't see how they were considered good looking...unless you're psb-freak.

I voted for Neil in 1993 after he'd come out as a baldie, and embraced his triangle.

[Zeus On The Loose]

I think I voted for Jason Orange that year. I am such a traitor.

[Undertaker]

Spice Girls did co-write Wannabe. Mel B said on t.v they were asked to finsih off a couple of lines and they put in Zigga zig ah. When asked what it meant, she said '' It can mean anything you want it to mean, it rhymed and that was all we was bothered about''

Enuf said, really.

Dave

[Ronald42]

"All because of you" will be the next U2 single released early october. Probebly the last single of HTDAB. So DM will catch up with them if they release at least 2 singles that make the top 40.

[Janet Street-Porter]

And the Stones were indeed much, much better in every way.

Who were the Stones to the Spice Girls being The Beatles? B*witched perhaps?

I like The Stones but I'd consider them more rock than pop; The Beatles are indisputably the latter.

[Janet Street-Porter]

Certain people here seem to think that liking The Beatles is tantamount to being brainwashed. Let me assure you all that I love The Beatles for exactly the same reason that I love David Bowie, T-Rex, Pet Shop Boys or The Smiths - ipso facto, they made some fantastic pop songs.

And Engelbert Humperdinck didn't.

[thomashenry]

And the Stones were indeed much, much better in every way.

Who were the Stones to the Spice Girls being The Beatles? B*witched perhaps?

I like The Stones but I'd consider them more rock than pop; The Beatles are indisputably the latter.

It's all in the 'Rock and Pop' section at HMV, so it's all the same to me!