Dear heilgrl

[dVTB]

Fair enough Eldritch, but what kind of action do you suggest? Do you want everybody to follow your example and post all hateful PM's in new topics? Or would some tighter moderation actually be a solution?

[Eldritch]

I think in extreme cases like heilgrl's, banning would be right in my opinion. I would allow personal slanging matches, but heilgrl's homophobia is just bigotry in general and off any sane scale anyway, and it's not like she has ever contributed anything worthwhile even in any PSB-related thread,

[gregf]

Hi dVTB and all,

Sorry I have not posted here for a while. 1stPSB concert 4 days ago.

The quoted PM breaks forum rules 1, 4, 5 and 8. The admins can verify
the content then give a warning or banning but should hear both sides.

Perhaps "sin-binning" for a month or two. Can a profile be locked ?

I think the forum is fairly well run. I would like to see less abusive posts.
But the existing framework, if enforced may be enough.

The other thing to consider is you don't want to make policing too onerous
for the admins. That will quickly cause vacancies and collapse. And some of
the suggestions can not be implemented without software changes that
we can not do.

We have some rough and tumble in the political threads. And there is a tactic
to cast abuse, just to shut down debate. And that is censorship and Being Boring.

I think we have something good here. And that is worth protecting.
So I am in favour of a little stronger police-ing but dont make it complicated.

[dVTB]

I'm glad to read your opinion on the matter (finally). I'm pretty displeased with the fact that my topic about tighter moderation was closed, so I will just 'abuse' this topic to continue that discussion, if you don't mind.

I'm also a user on a very big general Dutch forum, where thousands of posts are made every day. They have a different moderation and banning system, but it's pretty effective. Certain behaviour will cause an immediate ban. This includes cloning when you are already banned. They also use a system for 24-hour or week bans.

And before topics are completely closed, moderators first try to clean up topics! This is also pretty crucial, like the Tigher Moderation thread ironically showed. In this case, I started a topic. Some people ruin it, the moderator closes it and my topic is gone. This shouldn't happen on any forum!

[Undertaker]

I've always thought the idea of suspending someone to be a good idea. Although in the case of the recent lunatic, it should be a case of throwing down the toilet and flushing away.

Is this heilgrl actually a women though?

Dave

[Danny C]

Or would some tighter moderation actually be a solution?

Unless you want admin to vet all private messages, I'm baffled as to how tighter moderation could stop abusive PMs being sent.

You seem to have a fixation with authority; are you a submissive by any chance?

[DavePSB]

Heilgrl has been deleted by either Steve or TheGardner, as I cannot find him/her on the database.

No user will ever be pleased with moderation on any internet forum. My approach is to intervene when absolutely necessary - some people prefer it, others don't. Steve and TheGardner have a different methods of moderation. If certain things breach certain rules set out, then actions are taken to rectify it and/or the user.

[dVTB]

Unless you want admin to vet all private messages, I'm baffled as to how tighter moderation could stop abusive PMs being sent.

You seem to have a fixation with authority; are you a submissive by any chance?

I have no fixation with authority. I just want this forum to be a decent and pleasant place, not some kindergarten or freak playground. I've been a member of several internet forums, including several PSB forums, and I prefer forums with some moderation. It's been over-dramatized, but face it: if you want a PSB forum with less moderation, you can go elsewhere.

Like DavePSB said; moderation should indeed be as little as possible. But when actions are necessary, they should be taken. Tighter moderation cannot prevent abusive PM's to be sent, but it can help to keep trolls and abusive users away from this place. I think new users or people who think there are no rules on internet at all, should comply to OUR forum rules, rather than we adapting ourselves to their lack of decent behaviour.

I'm not moral, I have no fixation with authority. I just want myself and other valuable users to enjoy this forum as much as possible. Like the subtitle (one guess who suggested this) of this place says: I like to think of it as home. Somebody pays for the hosting of this site, people spend time to moderate it as good as possible, people spent time designing it, several users spend time to start good topics and add valuable comments and reports. I don't want all that good work ruined by some trolls and psychopats with a lack of respect, that's all.

[glennjridge]

I respect your and undertakers and eldritch's view, but lets just let the moderators do the job as they see fit like they have.

a thread like this and the other one seemingly is to sort of passively bully the moderators into being tighter. they have been doing just fine on their own.

left to their own devices the moderators would have taken action without this and the other thread. you cant predict a troublemaker so just let the moderators do what they do.

not directed at anyone but sometimes the guy that is calling for more rules can just be as much trouble as the trouble they are complaining about, just in a different way.

[dVTB]

Thanks for your remarks, Glennjridge, but I was trying to generate some discussion. I'm trying to find out what people think of it. Like I wrote in my first opening post in the 'tigher moderation' thread, I don't want to criticize the mods. We'll see how things develop.

[Danny C]

Thanks for your remarks, Glennjridge, but I was trying to generate some discussion.

I don't see the point in discussing something you don't have, and will never have, the opportunity to have a say in. I'm sure the admin are perfectly able to do their jobs without hearing what us proles think

[Frequency]

I think the moderation is fine as is. You're always going to get kooks and nutters posting utter dirge from time to time, sometimes its entertaining, sometimes rather unsettling. I think the demographic of the forum dictates a lenient hands-off approach allowing users ample opportunity to settle their differences in a civil manner.

New users shouldn't be put on trial and given arbitrary restrictions. On an internet forum such as this, everything should be dealt with after the fact rather than assuming the worst in a newly registered user.

From what I read some previous users where unhappy with the certain decisions of the mods and left but that was before my time so I don't know that much about it. For me, or at least from what I've seen whilst posting, the moderators have done a decent job so far.

As for the pm itself that eldritch posted, those kind of pm's deserve to be flaunted in public purely for the sheer illiterate ignorance contained within. The turnaround from the mods was fairly quick and she was given ample warning to reign herself in but, of course, that was just not on the cards.

Someone said, quite correctly, its not as if her contribution is going to missed.

[Eldritch]

Heilgrl has been deleted by either Steve or TheGardner, as I cannot find him/her on the database.

Apparently she's still here, because I have received another spout of bile through pm at the time: "Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:11 am". I'll spare you by not posting the content here though.

[dVTB]

Thanks for your remarks, Glennjridge, but I was trying to generate some discussion.

I don't see the point in discussing something you don't have, and will never have, the opportunity to have a say in. I'm sure the admin are perfectly able to do their jobs without hearing what us proles think

You don't need to take part in a discussion you don't see the point of. You made it clear a couple of times now that I shouldn't speak about this issue or about other internet forums. I wonder what's your motive for this 'tutorial' behaviour. I'm not posting offensive remarks, I'm also not posting bullshit, I feel I'm trying to start a discussion about a pretty essential aspect of this forum.

I feel that we, users of this forum in general, DO have an influence on the moderation policy. I like to believe that the board owner and moderators of this forum are reasonable people who ARE in fact listening to arguments. I don't request them to do everything I suggest, but I do have the impression they ARE in fact listening, as well as taking part in the discussion, as well as taking necessary actions.

[Joemoz]

Thanks for your remarks, Glennjridge, but I was trying to generate some discussion.

I don't see the point in discussing something you don't have, and will never have, the opportunity to have a say in. I'm sure the admin are perfectly able to do their jobs without hearing what us proles think

You don't need to take part in a discussion you don't see the point of. You made it clear a couple of times now that I shouldn't speak about this issue or about other internet forums. I wonder what's your motive for this 'tutorial' behaviour. I'm not posting offensive remarks, I'm also not posting bullshit, I feel I'm trying to start a discussion about a pretty essential aspect of this forum.

I feel that we, users of this forum in general, DO have an influence on the moderation policy. I like to believe that the board owner and moderators of this forum are reasonable people who ARE in fact listening to arguments. I don't request them to do everything I suggest, but I do have the impression they ARE in fact listening, as well as taking part in the discussion, as well as taking necessary actions.

Indeed the moderators shouldn't be - and aren't pretending to be - bigger than the forum. Apart from a few notable mistakes, I think the moderators are fulfilling their role with the right attitude. This forum was founded by the members and so of course the rules should reflect the opinions of the frequent posters. These discussions are highly relevant and need to be had occasionally, by those who care about the forum's well-being and have time for such meta discussions.
I think dVTB brought up some relevant points in the other thread, although I think it's a shame he has to include an attack on the other PSB forums every time he makes a point about this one - it obscures the otherwise relevant content.

As someone who is sometimes subjected to very personal attacks I support measures that actually target the people who ruin the threads rather than the whole thread itself. Anyone can read through the original closed thread and judge for themselves who were the disturbers of the polite tone - I think attacks aimed at the poster's person rather than their subjects should be censored and the people making them be suspended and - in case of repetition - banned.

Let me quote some of Dave Undertaker's post about me here:

"He's always been a miserable sod and tries to be funny in his own way but because he's a Dane, it's never worked and it gets terribly tiresome. I even remember him demanding a jokes thread was removed.
Maybe we should start a thread about his umbrella, or a topic about his keyboard just sat in his front room, even though he cannot play a single note.
No, i know, start a betting book on how long it will be before he moans about davenjulie not paying for goods. ACTUALLY, i;'ve thought of an even better one. What about a book opening on how long it will be before he whinges about people not buying cd's, even though he walked into the closer to heaven concert with a tape recorder"

I would like to hear from other people if you consider this to be an acceptable way of commenting on other people's postings? Is it generally okay to spread lies about people's personal lives here?

It is fine that Dave Undertaker does not like my postings and does not think I am funny (coming from such a comical genius, that really stings). It is even okay that he feels the need to refer to threads from more than 4 years back, but I think a line should be drawn at lies about someone's personal life - otherwise I think we're opening up to rather a few unpleasantries. If you all disagree, I have a couple of details about Dave's private life I can share with you too.

When that is said, nobody should be too sensitive to receive criticism on their postings - and threads shouldn't be closed just because an argument gets heated - as long as the posters stick to the principle of commenting on each other's posts rather than make allegations about their personalities.

As for heilgrl - I think it's a bit of a non-discussion. Nobody supports him or her and everyone agrees she should be banned. Trolls like that come about every now and then and of course they should be dealt with - hardly creates a need for changing the forum rules - it is the frequent closing of other people's threads that does.