No Numb LIVE, no Numb SINGLE?

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Burj · #46 Post by **Burj** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:00 pm

Whatever? No worries, but it helps if you get the get the writer's credits correct which then will help you make your point!

is anyone going to take your points or opinions seriously if you think that PSB wrote the Crying Game, for instance?

dgraysn · #47 Post by **dgraysn** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:05 pm

jamie1978 wrote:Whatever, its got nothing to do with Numb being a truly terribly choice for a single which will flop instantly. That was the point I was making.

more opinion and ill informed - the crying game was a ballad prodeuced by PSB and written by someone else, performed by a singer that was "commercially dead" in the US. the US charts are filled with bad songs and many of them by dianne warren. if Numb was recorded by aerosmith i would hate it. PSB have made a great version with a lot of potential given the right exposure. if the record label can get it placed in a film or TV show it will do well. it presents a side of PSB that the general american public have not been exposed to. many reviewers dont like it, but there are plenty of fans here who do and were surprised at how good it is

dgraysn · #48 Post by **dgraysn** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:09 pm

jamie1978 wrote:So your logic is: Boy George has a hit 14 years ago with a Tennant/Lowe song which accompanied a very successful film in the USA gaining it lots of free promotion. Therefore, an MOR power ballad not written by Tennant/Lowe and not accompanying a film, and released 14 years later, will also be a hit.

Honestly, get a grip.

i think its you who need to get a grip. really , so much anger and negativity, but i guess you fit in with many fans here who are never satisfied with what PSB do. the bizarre love/hate relationship many "fans" here have with PSB always amuses me. good thing N&C dont take advice from this board

! · #49 Post by ! » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:11 pm

I don't think it's being performed live because it's not a very summery song is it?

By the time a third single is due out, this will be a good choice! It's one of the best (IMO) on the album and don't forget, it was meant to be a single originally for PopArt so...

dgraysn · #50 Post by **dgraysn** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:16 pm

! wrote:I don't think it's being performed live because it's not a very summery song is it?

By the time a third single is due out, this will be a good choice! It's one of the best (IMO) on the album and don't forget, it was meant to be a single originally for PopArt so...

theres also no reason the assume the setlist for the summer shows will be carried over to the world tour in the autumn. i expect songs will be dropped and others added. i think its time to retire West End girls and Go West

Janet Street-Porter · Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:22 pm

jamie1978 wrote:In case you have not noticed, in almost every review of the album not by the sychophant named Peter Jackson, Numb has been singled out for ridicule and abuse.

"I resent that comment."

Burj · #52 Post by **Burj** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:31 pm

jamie1978 wrote:What the hell are you on about?

They have NOT stated that Numb will be a single.

Numb is NOT single material.

So why 'should' they promote a song they have NO INTENTION of releasing as a single?

if PSB and EMI didn't think Numb was single material why did they record it for PopArt?

and once it was left off PopArt if they still didn't think it might be a future single why didn't they just use it as a B-side to Miracles, Flamboyant or I'm With Stupid instead?

because they clearly think that, if there is to be a third single, then this might be the one...

where have they said that they have "NO INTENTION" of releasing this as a single?

what the hell are you on about?

dgraysn · #53 Post by **dgraysn** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:42 pm

Burj wrote:
jamie1978 wrote:What the hell are you on about?

They have NOT stated that Numb will be a single.

Numb is NOT single material.

So why 'should' they promote a song they have NO INTENTION of releasing as a single?
if PSB and EMI didn't think Numb was single material why did they record it for PopArt?

and once it was left off PopArt if they still didn't think it might be a future single why didn't they just use it as a B-side to Miracles, Flamboyant or I'm With Stupid instead?

because they clearly think that, if there is to be a third single, then this might be the one...

where have they said that they have "NO INTENTION" of releasing this as a single?

what the hell are you on about?

exactly - great response

jamie1978 · #54 Post by **jamie1978** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:47 pm

Burj wrote:
if PSB and EMI didn't think Numb was single material why did they record it for PopArt?

and once it was left off PopArt if they still didn't think it might be a future single why didn't they just use it as a B-side to Miracles, Flamboyant or I'm With Stupid instead?

because they clearly think that, if there is to be a third single, then this might be the one...

where have they said that they have "NO INTENTION" of releasing this as a single?

what the hell are you on about?

The fact is Flamboyant replaced Numb on Popart which rather defeats your point. That tells me that Flamboyant was condisidered a better single release and that they could shove Numb on some future album as a bit of filler.

The simple fact is that NOTHING offical has indicated that Numb will be a single. Every review apart from a few has riduculed the song as the weakest point of the whole album.

Aside from the fact it would be the worst possible choice and it would be a complete and utter flop, NOONE not EMI nor the Pet Shop Boys have said it will be a single. And yet half of you are on this bizarre merry-go-round of delusion, speculating why they are not playing it live as its the third single. Its hilarious to watch but also a little disturbing.

Aside from whether you like the song or not, and according to polls and review, which is the only real indicator we have, most people do NOT like it, no-one has said it will be a single apart from a few people on this forum.

And frankly anyone will an informed opinion, or anyone with a vauge sense of commerical awareness, knows that even from a purely speculative viewpoint it would be a commercial and artistic disaster to release that second rate power ballad as a single.

To paraphrase a popular quote, the only people who should be releasing second-rate Aerosmith power ballads are Aerosmith.

jamie1978 · #55 Post by **jamie1978** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:48 pm

dgraysn wrote:
exactly - great response

Yeah apart from the bit where everyone is ignoring the fact that no-one in an official capacity has even hinted that Numb will be a single.

Get. A. Grip.

profile790 · #56 Post by **profile790** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:49 pm

jamie1978 wrote:
If Minimal does not increase album sales, there will be no third single, whether you or anyone else likes it or not. (....) Says any record company boss with a profit and loss sheet - ie all of them. This is hardly a controversial opinion, its a simple fact.

(....) Look, its really not complicated. If the 'second best' single of the album fails to push Fundamental back up the album chart (which is the SOLE point of releasing it), there is absolutely no way on this planet they will fund the release of the 'third best' single (whatever they deem that to be).

EMI refused to release 'Closer to heaven' as the fourth single from Nightlife, because Drunk failed to get the album even back into the top 75, despite Drunk being a top 10 hit. And I'm sure most people would agree that CTH would have made a superb single choice, but thats not the point. Album sales are the point.

Very had 5 singles released from it, because each single release caused a new surge in album sales. Record companies don't spend good money promoting and launching a single if it does not generate album sales. Anyone who disputes this is frankly just wrong, and a bit dim.

You're very quick to label other discussion participants as 'retarded', 'dim' and 'wrong', you're also expressing your opinion as if it is the one and only truth, yet you don't have your facts right!

Behaviour spent a total of 14 weeks in the UK album Top 75 (nine weeks in 1990, five weeks in 1991). The single release of Streets/Seriously did NOT push the album back into the UK Top 75, yet Jealousy was released as a 4th single in June 1991.

Bilingual entered the UK album charts shortly after its release, on 14 September 1996.
Its chart run was: 4 - 13 - 24 - 33 - 48 - 69 -> out. There's NO increase in sales visible, yet two further singles (Single-Bilingual and A Red Letter Day) were released. Only the reissue (special edition) in July 1997, accompanied by Somewhere, spent two weeks in the Top 75.

Nightlife had a 3-week run in the UK album charts: 7-28-60 -> out. I don't know what you want but I can't give it any more and New York city boy didn't exactly help to give this album a sales boost, when you compare these figures to the ones of Bilingual. Yet a third single (Drunk) was released in January 2000.

Release spent one week longer in the UK Album Top 75 than Nightlife: 7 - 32 - 49 - 61 -> out. Yet this third single was never released.

Also see 'Playing The Angel' by Depeche Mode. It spent just 4 weeks in the UK Top 75, its second single (A Pain That I'm Used To), didn't manage to get the album back into the Top 75, yet a third single (Suffer Well) was released.

So: the situation is different for every album. The question whether or not the record company wants to release a 3rd single from Fundamental, depends on the *expected benefit* of such a release, not on the sales results after earlier single releases.

One way to get the maximum commercial potential is to release a different sounding single. See Nightlife. They tried it with Drunk (yet unsuccesful). A way to display what Fundamental has to offer, would be to release a slower song as the 3rd single. Numb and Indefinite Leave To Remain are the two most likely options.

If you say that the success of Minimal has an *influence* on the choice what the 3rd single will be, I agree with it. If Minimal is unsuccesful, the 3rd single is more likely to be a slow song. If Minimal is succesful, they might go for another uptempo track (either Integral or The Sodom And Gomorrah Show).

jamie1978 · #57 Post by **jamie1978** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 3:58 pm

stats-freak wrote:
jamie1978 wrote:
stats-freak wrote:

Actually, YOUR facts are wrong.

Both Bilingual and Nightlife had TWO singles released before the album was launched.

Bilingual was released at a time when the PSB's were still considered a major commercial force, so two singles following the album is to be expected. Note: 1 less than Very.

With Nightlife however, you're just making up facts. Nightlife was released AFTER I don't know what you want but I can't give it any more and New York city boy. It sold 1.2 million copies off the back of New York city boy mainly.

Drunk was then released, but the album failed to appear in the top 75 as a result so they cancelled the release of the planned forth single, Closer to Heaven.

With Release, I get along failed to push the album back into the top 75... the result of which was no third single in the UK as EMI stated it would 'not increase album sales'.

So stop denying the obvious please.

jamie1978 · #58 Post by **jamie1978** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 4:01 pm

stats-freak wrote: One way to get the maximum commercial potential is to release a different sounding single. See Nightlife. They tried it with Drunk (yet unsuccesful). A way to display what Fundamental has to offer, would be to release a slower song as the 3rd single. Numb and Indefinite Leave To Remain are the two most likely options.

Right, so name me all the big hit 'slow/balllad' singles the Pet Shop Boys have released then.

Oh, there aren't any. Funny that. Both the songs you mention are dead cert flops just like very other slow paced song they have released as a single.

Burj · #59 Post by **Burj** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 4:10 pm

jamie1978 wrote:The fact is Flamboyant replaced Numb on Popart which rather defeats your point. That tells me that Flamboyant was condisidered a better single release and that they could shove Numb on some future album as a bit of filler.

actually there are in-house reference CDs for PopArt which show Miracles, Flamboyant AND Numb in the tracklisting.

the fact that they intended to make a minimal electro album but still wanted to carry over Numb for it rather than use it as a B-side indicates that they see the song more than mere 'filler'.

you'll be telling us Tennant/Lowe wrote Always On My Mind next

profile790 · #60 Post by **profile790** » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 4:16 pm

jamie1978 wrote:Actually, YOUR facts are wrong. Both Bilingual and Nightlife had TWO singles released before the album was launched.

Bilingual was released at a time when the PSB's were still considered a major commercial force, so two singles following the album is to be expected. Note: 1 less than Very.

With Nightlife however, you're just making up facts. Nightlife was released AFTER I don't know what you want but I can't give it any more and New York city boy. It sold 1.2 million copies off the back of New York city boy mainly.

Drunk was then released, but the album failed to appear in the top 75 as a result so they cancelled the release of the planned forth single, Closer to Heaven.

With Release, I get along failed to push the album back into the top 75... the result of which was no third single in the UK as EMI stated it would 'not increase album sales'.

So stop denying the obvious please.

The chart runs I mentioned, came from a very reliable source. In the chart run of Nightlife, I don't see where the 1.2 million sales come from. I am of course aware that the album was released after the two (flop) singles, but you can't deny that the chart run 7 - 28 - 60 -> out, isn't exactly impressive... - Yet EMI tried a third single.

I don't deny EMI's comment regarding the 3rd single from Release, yet this is - once again - based on a situation for every album. It depends on the commercial potential that's left.

According to your theories, Single-Bilingual should have been the final single from Bilingual, since it did not push Bilingual back into the album Top 75. Yet 'A Red Letter Day' was released. I find it rather ridiculous to claim that PSB were still seen as a major commercial force in March 1997.

As you can see: you explain the results of album X in way A, I explain them in way B. Deciding whether or not an additional single should be taken from the album depends on more than album sales. It depends on the quality of the remaining tracks on the album, it can depend on a strategy to support a tour, to support promotion, to support a remix album or re-release of an album.

So I stick to my opinion: the situation is different for every album. And: regardless how Minimal stimulates Fundamental sales, there's enough quality left on the album to release a 3rd single.