Neil supports Lambeth College UCU

[jamie1978]

So your logic is that because a de-regulated private sector has withdrawn decent pensions, everyone else should have crappy pensions too. How ridiculous.

No, I'm for fairness and exploited private sector workers should not be subsidising the excess of fat cat public sector pensions.

The average public sector pension pays £6,000 a year. Hardly excessive.

Or should doctors, teachers, police officers etc live in abject poverty in their old age just because the private sector has scrapped decent pensions?

And you miss the point. If workers have no pension provision, then who pays for their care/food/housing when they are old? The state, i.e. us as taxpayers. Bad pensions in the private sector cost society a lot of money.

I'm for fairness too - corporations should pay their fair share back to the societies that enable them to be successful. Large corporates should provide decent pensions for their workers. The state pays to educate their workers, keep them healthy, pays for the infrastructure (roads/rail/airports) businesses need, pays for a police and judicial system to keep businesses safe. In return, businesses should do their part to keep society in the state they find it. Driving people into poverty in their old age, so the state picks up the bill, is hardly 'fair'.

[jamie1978]

Simply it is true . Google it we are the 23rd .... I've even put a link for the top ten here

http://top10thebest.com/top-10-richest- ... the-world/

Problem with all the profit coming in is people play the system so it goes out again , and none paid in tax...

Plus we are a shit load in debt.

The income of a nation is generally measured in GDP. By most measures (World Bank etc) we are about 6th in the world.

Wealth, in terms of the total value of assets, is measured differently, but we are 4th in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _of_wealth

[Patrick Bateman]

The average public sector pension pays £6,000 a year. Hardly excessive.

Or should doctors, teachers, police officers etc live in abject poverty in their old age just because the private sector has scrapped decent pensions?

And you miss the point. If workers have no pension provision, then who pays for their care/food/housing when they are old? The state, i.e. us as taxpayers. Bad pensions in the private sector cost society a lot of money.

I'm for fairness too - corporations should pay their fair share back to the societies that enable them to be successful. Large corporates should provide decent pensions for their workers. The state pays to educate their workers, keep them healthy, pays for the infrastructure (roads/rail/airports) businesses need, pays for a police and judicial system to keep businesses safe. In return, businesses should do their part to keep society in the state they find it. Driving people into poverty in their old age, so the state picks up the bill, is hardly 'fair'.

The salient point is that public sector benefits were traditionally better than those in the private sector because wages were lower and it was seen as a sacrifice to work within it.

That is simply no longer the case and people on zero-hour contracts should not be subsidising the largesse of the public sector. My problem is with attitudes like raggatwin's who, for all his self-professed solidarity with the workers, adopts an 'I'm alright, Jack' attitude with respect to the non-unionised private sector.

Whilst one can sympathise with him only getting 35 days leave (excluding public holidays) from Bash Street High, he should remember that it will be the private sector paying for his annual subscription to the Socialist Worker in his retirement.

[raggatwin]

do you even read my posts?

I have stated, at least twice here, that the private sector should be organised and fight for better pay and conditions.

As for the SWP, no, i'm not a member.

[Waffleon]

Why the animosity towards raggatwin? It's almost like some of you are brainwashed. All this anti union, bring down the country bullshit. Of course Corporates can afford to award better benefits, they'd just make less profit. They do still pay big bucks out to some. It's just that unlike the old days when the workers negotiated en masse, it's now every man for himself. Maggie's way. There's no loyalty in the work place anymore. You want more money, your best bet is to move jobs. I believe it's called a free market. Although the ambitious, flexible few do very well from this model, the corporates do better out of those that aren't that way inclined or disposed.

Of course the model doesn't quite work for the public sector. Employees don't have the same bargaining power. They often can't as easily transfer to the private sector. They should therefore be protected.

I'm not advocating massive trade unions, strikes everywhere etc. I understand the economics of increased costs passed on in price hikes thereby increasing inflation. I'm just pro us helping each other out a bit really. Isn't that basically nicer? More civilised? I'm an accountant in Financial services - it's dog eat dog. Good luck to anyone who gets 35 days holiday, long may they keep them. They do deserve them, we all do.

[goughsjd]

35 days leave aain't that much really is it , think I get bout 9 weeks a year makes me happy but on the other hand I work bout 3 months straight thro so I think that's only fare after all each job is different !!!

[Deschanel]

Crikes, Americans are lucky to get two weeks off per year!

Let's face it: if we've been lowered to this point where we are fighting over poorly-paid teachers' salaries, so many against unions and decent pay and pensions for public servants like cops and nurses and firefighters and teachers- well, to begrudge them their fair compensation means we are like dogs fighting over scraps thrown from the master's table. They've turned us against each other.

Those occupations above, public employees? They are the backbone of a civil and safe society that at least tries to be a decent and good society. I can't believe the attacks on teachers' (meagre) salaries and pensions, here and in the UK, when they are just, you know, in charge of EDUCATING YOUR KIDS.
Yeah, let's make teaching so horrrible and unliveable as a career that only degenerates are left with our kids! Great idea!

Attacking public sector workers and unions is how the very rich divide us. Fighting over scraps. It's appalling.

[james23_uk]

Teachers aren't poorly paid. They are over-worked and under-resourced.

I'm not sure anyone is attacking their salaries, more their constant stream of demands for better benefits and pensions than everyone else.

If they were striking over 40 children to a class or the fact they have to buy the classroom pencils from the Pound Shop with their own money then they would have my full support. But they are not.

[Andie]

Those getting 35 days, is that including public holidays? Here in Melbourne & probably most of Australia, we get 20 days annual leave plus public holidays, which where I live gives an extra 10 days. I wouldn't mind 35 days lol

[raggatwin]

Teachers aren't poorly paid. They are over-worked and under-resourced.

I'm not sure anyone is attacking their salaries, more their constant stream of demands for better benefits and pensions than everyone else.

If they were striking over 40 children to a class or the fact they have to buy the classroom pencils from the Pound Shop with their own money then they would have my full support. But they are not.

I taught religious studies for two years and had to buy my own books. One year I even had to buy my own whiteboard pens. Lambeth college is a F.E and subject to a different funding formula to schools and universities, they receive proportionately less money than the other two sectors....courses are closed at the drop of a hat in this sector and teachers can find themselves out of work very quickly every September.

Some of you need to educate yourselves.

[raggatwin]

I have mates as this college and two years ago after students were enrolled on A level courses the college decided to just close them with the kids left very little option to transfer onto btec courses or find a place in another college - which was going to be difficult given that they were probably full. My previous employer juat one day after getting a grade 2 for ofsted closed two departments offering very valuable courses to very vulnerable groups - the disabled and the homeless - a total of 60 jobs were lost. These jobs were lost in July, most teaching jobs are advertised March/April.

Teachers in this sector are protecting not only their conditions but the principle of education for all.

[raggatwin]

NO other profession is liable for level of inspection that teachers are either, imagine a solicitor or a doctor tolerating their manager turning up at ANY time to observe their work. Two bad observations are you are likely to lose tour job.

[Patrick Bateman]

Teachers aren't poorly paid. They are over-worked and under-resourced.

I'm not sure anyone is attacking their salaries, more their constant stream of demands for better benefits and pensions than everyone else.

If they were striking over 40 children to a class or the fact they have to buy the classroom pencils from the Pound Shop with their own money then they would have my full support. But they are not.

Not just teachers, many of the public sector. Yes, there are good people in the public sector but there are also plenty of lazy, useless, and exceptionally greedy ones too, often in the higher echelons of local authorities. Similarly not everybody in the private sector is a Rockefeller-in-training; what about people working for charities, for instance?

In raggatwin's world, public sector workers only take a break from doing good works when they are finally beatified. Hallelujah!

[Patrick Bateman]

Those getting 35 days, is that including public holidays?

Don't be silly!

[raggatwin]

Teachers aren't poorly paid. They are over-worked and under-resourced.

I'm not sure anyone is attacking their salaries, more their constant stream of demands for better benefits and pensions than everyone else.

If they were striking over 40 children to a class or the fact they have to buy the classroom pencils from the Pound Shop with their own money then they would have my full support. But they are not.

Not just teachers, many of the public sector. Yes, there are good people in the public sector but there are also plenty of lazy, useless, and exceptionally greedy ones too, often in the higher echelons of local authorities. Similarly not everybody in the private sector is a Rockefeller-in-training; what about people working for charities, for instance?

In raggatwin's world, public sector workers only take a break from doing good works when they are finally beatified. Hallelujah!

Again, you have not read my posts.