Pet Shop Boys Community

petshopgrrl wrote: Thu 05 Feb 2026, 8:17 am
Ooh, harsh. Neil hoist with his own petard. Not singling you out personally here, Patrick, but this is a very curious aspect of this thread: I thought we were here to discuss the merits of each individual song but instead I'm watching some of you longtimers grieve as your childhood favorite act seems to go off the rails one single and one curious business decision at a time and you're personally insulted by this. Twelve years would be a miraculous career in anyone's book. Now begins the long walk through the musical wilderness until the fanbase develops a) more disposable income and b) a sense of nostalgia and c) gets people in positions of influence who can spread the gospel to a new generation.

Well, the wider context is surely part of the discussion. As I said, I like A Red Letter Day but it is the first top ten single to drop completely out of the top 40 the next week. It's also interesting to remember what the charts were like at the time - The Chemical Brothers going straight in at number one in the same week seems apt. I'm fascinated by this period of their career as I was definitely more into other stuff at the time and I'm always interested to see what happens to pop acts at the end of their successful period, whether that's T-Rex, Madness or Pet Shop Boys. Neil was too, as he was the one who came up with the concept of the dumper.

I think the drop in the charts was inevitable. You'd have to look at where the Chemical Brothers' singles charted in 2006. Obviously, the decline in quality also played a role. Considering their previous level, it wasn't even a matter of maintaining it.

Anyway, if we removed the four weakest songs from Bilingual to keep the eight, and added West End Girls and Suburbia, or It's a Sin and Heart, for example, I think the album wouldn't be that far behind Please and Actually. I think the drop in average quality is most noticeable in the singles.

NOBODY75 wrote: Thu 05 Feb 2026, 12:38 pm I think the drop in the charts was inevitable. You'd have to look at where the Chemical Brothers' singles charted in 2006. Obviously, the decline in quality also played a role. Considering their previous level, it wasn't even a matter of maintaining it.

Anyway, if we removed the four weakest songs from Bilingual to keep the eight, and added West End Girls and Suburbia, or It's a Sin and Heart, for example, I think the album wouldn't be that far behind Please and Actually. I think the drop in average quality is most noticeable in the singles.

Bilingual is a good, if flawed, album. I like the fact it is out of step with the Britpop landscape too. I just wish they'd fully committed to the Spanish/Portuguese theme, kept it to ten tracks and promoted it more. It wouldn't have made much difference to its commercial performance but as it is, it reflects an uncertainty about where the future lay for them as a pop group. Obviously, what they do next betrays that more. For example, if they wanted to write musicals, why didn't they just retire the Pet Shop Boys like Bjorn and Benny did with ABBA?

Patrick Bateman wrote: Thu 05 Feb 2026, 11:14 am

petshopgrrl wrote: Thu 05 Feb 2026, 8:17 am
Ooh, harsh. Neil hoist with his own petard. Not singling you out personally here, Patrick, but this is a very curious aspect of this thread: I thought we were here to discuss the merits of each individual song but instead I'm watching some of you longtimers grieve as your childhood favorite act seems to go off the rails one single and one curious business decision at a time and you're personally insulted by this. Twelve years would be a miraculous career in anyone's book. Now begins the long walk through the musical wilderness until the fanbase develops a) more disposable income and b) a sense of nostalgia and c) gets people in positions of influence who can spread the gospel to a new generation.

Well, the wider context is surely part of the discussion. As I said, I like A Red Letter Day but it is the first top ten single to drop completely out of the top 40 the next week. It's also interesting to remember what the charts were like at the time - The Chemical Brothers going straight in at number one in the same week seems apt. I'm fascinated by this period of their career as I was definitely more into other stuff at the time and I'm always interested to see what happens to pop acts at the end of their successful period, whether that's T-Rex, Madness or Pet Shop Boys. Neil was too, as he was the one who came up with the concept of the dumper.

But hey, it's getting quite tiring reading thiese kind of arguments again and again and again. We all know all bands have their peak period and then, if they continue long enough, fall out of the mainstream high popularity. We all know that PSB could've had a different "popularity trajectory" in the 90's if they'd chosen a different release schedule. But to go from there to say that the quality is worse just because they didn't receive the same chart success just isn't right. A song like A Red Letter Day has:
1. Great lyrics - combining complicated words with simple sentences and a message filled with empathy
2. Elaborate production I, even adding a choir that's out of tune
3. Melody and chords originating in a classical composition
4. A new 7'' mix with the sound de jour
5. Great remixes
6. Elaborate production II, joing two completely different pieces Black Sun + A Red Letter Day
There's nothing there that could lead us to the conclusion that the quality is lower than before. The same goes for many of the other songs on Bilingual. Just listen to the first seconds of Discoteca. That weird sound in the riff and then those sad chords after a few seconds. It might not be yelling CHART SUCCESS but it sure is great stuff.

A red letter day is my favourite song of the second half of the 90s. Following on from It always comes as a surprise, this is the very heart of Bilingual. With Discoteca, Single, and those two, you have nearly half a classic album. Like aging sport stars, the highs were almost as high as ever, but the lows were definitely lower...

A plaintive, dejected, but hopeful cry for a better tomorrow, A red letter day is a wonderfully touching ode to optimism. Beginning by recounting life's daily mundanities ("Go to work and take your calls") and minor triumphs ("hang the fruits of your labour on the walls"), we soon learn that our hero has nobody to share his successes with and, so, feels them to be hollow achievements. It's really a song from the perspective of an outwardly successful protagonist suffering an inner emptiness, and it plays on this contradiction to produce a beautiful melancholic hymn.

I like the sheer romance of the song and the idea that true happiness is to be found, not in socially prestigious or beautiful things (“the flowers in the garden, the wine”, visits to the theatre or academic qualifications), but in love. “For something special, somehow new, someone saying ‘I love you’” is one of the most touchingly beautiful and joyously hopeful Pet Shop Boys moments ever. They've rarely sounded as lonely or as warmly human.

So, I adore this song. But the production - on album or single - did it no favours whatsoever. The album version is needlessly elongated and drummy - like they had to shoe-in She-Boom to continue that south-of-the-border vibe. And the single is clunky - everything the song isn't - with its tacked-on sub-Gina G gyrations.

A magnificent song, badly produced.

Drico.

Drico One wrote: Thu 05 Feb 2026, 5:48 pm So, I adore this song. But the production - on album or single - did it no favours whatsoever. The album version is needlessly elongated and drummy - like they had to shoe-in She-Boom to continue that south-of-the-border vibe. And the single is clunky - everything the song isn't - with its tacked-on sub-Gina G gyrations.

A magnificent song, badly produced.
Drico.

What do you say, productionwise, about the Moscow mix and the Live version (on the I Get Along CD-maxi)?
I would've prefered the Moscow mix a capella all the way, without the disco drums.
The live version is too fast.

telys wrote: Thu 05 Feb 2026, 5:02 pm
But hey, it's getting quite tiring reading thiese kind of arguments again and again and again. We all know all bands have their peak period and then, if they continue long enough, fall out of the mainstream high popularity. We all know that PSB could've had a different "popularity trajectory" in the 90's if they'd chosen a different release schedule. But to go from there to say that the quality is worse just because they didn't receive the same chart success just isn't right. A song like A Red Letter Day has:
1. Great lyrics - combining complicated words with simple sentences and a message filled with empathy
2. Elaborate production I, even adding a choir that's out of tune
3. Melody and chords originating in a classical composition
4. A new 7'' mix with the sound de jour
5. Great remixes
6. Elaborate production II, joing two completely different pieces Black Sun + A Red Letter Day
There's nothing there that could lead us to the conclusion that the quality is lower than before. The same goes for many of the other songs on Bilingual. Just listen to the first seconds of Discoteca. That weird sound in the riff and then those sad chords after a few seconds. It might not be yelling CHART SUCCESS but it sure is great stuff.

Yes, I acknowledged that Bilingual is a good, if flawed, album, but it has at least three tracks on it that are worse than any on the previous five albums. Yes, A Red Letter Day is a good track but the chart performance of the single also signifies something important about their career.

I don't see any point saying this period is as good as what went before like Stalinist propaganda, because it's patently not but it's still decent. And as previously intimated, it will get far, far worse.

Following their career during this period, another notion comes to mind. While Hey Boy Hey Girl was triumphing on charts supposedly dominated by Britpop, PSB released Disco Potential as a B-side. They later highlighted it as the opener on the Uni tour in 2002, which was clearly an attempt to let the kids know they were still an option. Je t’aime… moi non plus was flirting, fishing from the same pond as Air in 1999. You could see them out there with their hooks, trying something. Why, in 1997, they were serving Radio 1 a kind of poor man’s Go West is the real mystery here. I was listening to the remixes of A Red Letter Day earlier, and they’re still ace — some of the best ’90s dance production you can dig up.

The eleven years since their first album and their age were clearly working against them. But Madonna and Kylie were also on the decline, and one album relaunched them. I don't think they could have regained their 80s popularity, but perhaps with different songs they could have slowed their fall.

I think "For Your Own Good" in '96 would have been a song that would have helped them... By '99 they were already too late with that sound.
Of what they had, I think "Metamorphosis" or "Up Again" were better options. However, for me, their biggest mistake was "Before" as their first single. I might be wrong because it actually charted well in the UK, and we'll never know what would have happened with a different song. But in my circle of friends who aren't Pets fans, absolutely no one likes that song.

It's probably the most interesting time in their career. It was Britpop era, but it was also a booming time for some fantastic dance music from the chems, Underworld, Leftfield, Faithless etc. At the time I was wanting them to continue down the Euroboy/Some Spec/Relentless/Dull souless dance remix route and and tag onto those groups - still would have quite liked them to have done that. Possibly they thought they were too old - different era now when all those groups are still performing in their 50s and 60s

Bilingual is an odd album. I can't think of anything else like Single as a track. There's a couple of stinkers on there, but I'd say its stood the time much better than Very. In fact I much prefer it as an album (Very b-sides were better though)

I often laugh at how folk think releasing certain tracks or alternatives would somehow prolonged their chart success. Perhaps so, but I very much doubt it. 1985 - 1996 was a wonderful run of chart success. And 1996 until now, we've enjoyed a further listening of 30 years, with many more hopefully to come.

SmurfBoy wrote: Fri 06 Feb 2026, 8:08 pm I often laugh at how folk think releasing certain tracks or alternatives would somehow prolonged their chart success. Perhaps so, but I very much doubt it. 1985 - 1996 was a wonderful run of chart success. And 1996 until now, we've enjoyed a further listening of 30 years, with many more hopefully to come.

Obviously, it hasn't mattered for a long time whether they release singles because they're dead on the singles charts. But in '96, they were coming off the success of Very, three years earlier, with global sales on par with their best-selling album. They were playing on Radio 1. Do you really think it didn't influence the album's success and the quality of the singles themselves? Surely the lack of promotion also played a part. Do you think releasing Before and a single is the same as releasing West End Girls, It's A Sin, Always on My Mind, Go West...? Every group or artist has a lifespan on the charts, especially the singles chart, and then they're replaced by newer, younger artists. Novelty and age matter in music. But what you post matters too.

Patrick Bateman wrote: Thu 05 Feb 2026, 1:26 pmFor example, if they wanted to write musicals, why didn't they just retire the Pet Shop Boys like Bjorn and Benny did with ABBA?

Because they wanted to do both. Why choose? And why are we pretending to know their mental states at the time? They might not have been uncertain of anything at all.

NOBODY75 wrote: Fri 06 Feb 2026, 11:51 pm Do you think releasing Before and a single is the same as releasing West End Girls, It's A Sin, Always on My Mind, Go West...?

Nope. But likewise they could write an equivalent to one of those today and they still wouldn’t chart. Bilingual was pretty much the opposite of the pop zeitgeist at the time - it speaks volumes about their previous track record that it did as well as it did at the time. The singles and the album should have done far worse.

The history of the charts proves there’s no correlation between quality and success. That’s not how pop music has ever worked.

telys wrote: Thu 05 Feb 2026, 5:02 pm We all know that PSB could've had a different "popularity trajectory" in the 90's if they'd chosen a different release schedule. But to go from there to say that the quality is worse just because they didn't receive the same chart success just isn't right. .... There's nothing there that could lead us to the conclusion that the quality is lower than before. The same goes for many of the other songs on Bilingual. Just listen to the first seconds of Discoteca. That weird sound in the riff and then those sad chords after a few seconds. It might not be yelling CHART SUCCESS but it sure is great stuff.

THANK YOU, telys! Besides, the more I read about the music industry in the 90's, chart success seems to be less about talent and more about how much coke your A&R person snorted before shagging a TV or radio executive. Interesting times...

But anyway, shall we toddle on?

Track 95: "Up against it"

Chronology: Bilingual, Track 8

Toto, we're definitely not in Gran Canaria any more. Instead we've unexpectedly moved on to postwar Britain, with an equally incongruous lurch out to darkest Russia, to embrace Bilingual's real underlying theme of "life is a struggle". The good citizens are tired of putting on their stiff upper lips and are wondering when there will be an end to the misery.

Some great rhymes in this one (nostalgia/Trafalgar, anyone?), a rousing chorus (good use of switched-up lines) and I like the double entendre of "time to kill". But were the long notes at the start and end of the verse lines supposed to be an extension of the Pinter joke, because, to me, they kind of drag and spoil the flow.

TIL: Joe Orton's screenplay "Up Against It", from which the song was named, has a character in it named Christopher Low. Fancy that!