Pet Shop Boys Community

markus wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 12:51 pm Up Against It[/i] might actually have worked at the time. Electronic’s Forbidden City was all over music TV, Monaco’s What Do You Want from Me? was a radio hit, and Manic Street Preachers were about to break through with If You Tolerate This….
The problem is that new buyers would probably have felt the same let-down they did with Very: where’s the rest?

What a time to be alive! Definitely add's weight to the poor Bilingual singles argument. The tracks are all fine, but the ones that captured the zeitgeist were largely left on the album it would seem.

NOBODY75 wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 10:06 am You almost wrote a novel there
And Very has apparently sold more than 5 million copies.

Yes, it's clear that I didn't know how to summarize what I wanted to express any better
I had a feeling it was 5, but I wanted to err on the side of caution. But the reality was far worse... 7 out of 10 people who bought Very jumped ship and never came back. It's always shocked me. Oh well, their loss.
[/quote]

Yes, their loss indeed !

Up against is such a great track, really enjoying it, I remember that when I got the advance promotional tape in June(as far as I can recall, it may have been July) that was the track I really, really liked, good times,

markus wrote: Sat 07 Feb 2026, 7:43 pm You really had to be there to understand what A Red Letter Day was all about.

Total nonsense.

Neil and Chris made a conscious choice to become a cult band.

This too.

NOBODY75 wrote: Sat 07 Feb 2026, 8:22 pm However, I was talking about the mid-90s and any decade before that, and even further back until a few years ago when the invasion of Trap, Urban, and that damn Reggaeton arrived. I do believe that quality mattered. Which doesn't mean that crap didn't reach the top and quality tracks didn't.

Your last sentence undermines your claim that quality mattered. It never has. And let’s face it, the mid ‘90s charts were full of crap like every other decade.

NotInvisible wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 5:54 pm

markus wrote: Sat 07 Feb 2026, 7:43 pm You really had to be there to understand what A Red Letter Day was all about.

Total nonsense.

Neil and Chris made a conscious choice to become a cult band.

This too.

Which brings us to the next single for discussion: “Somewhere” — the well-known PSB classic and fan favourite that analytics predicted would be Christmas No. 1 in 1997, at the height of the midsummer heatwave.

markus wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 6:05 pmWhich brings us to the next single for discussion: “Somewhere” — the well-known PSB classic and fan favourite that analytics predicted would be Christmas No. 1 in 1997, at the height of the midsummer heatwave.

No one predicted this would be the Christmas number one in 1997. Where do you get this rubbish?

NotInvisible wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 9:57 pm

markus wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 6:05 pmWhich brings us to the next single for discussion: “Somewhere” — the well-known PSB classic and fan favourite that analytics predicted would be Christmas No. 1 in 1997, at the height of the midsummer heatwave.

No one predicted this would be the Christmas number one in 1997. Where do you get this rubbish?

It was irony. Forget it.

petshopgrrl wrote: Sat 07 Feb 2026, 8:23 am Track 95: "Up against it"

Chronology: Bilingual, Track 8

Toto, we're definitely not in Gran Canaria any more. Instead we've unexpectedly moved on to postwar Britain, with an equally incongruous lurch out to darkest Russia, to embrace Bilingual's real underlying theme of "life is a struggle". The good citizens are tired of putting on their stiff upper lips and are wondering when there will be an end to the misery.

Some great rhymes in this one (nostalgia/Trafalgar, anyone?), a rousing chorus (good use of switched-up lines) and I like the double entendre of "time to kill". But were the long notes at the start and end of the verse lines supposed to be an extension of the Pinter joke, because, to me, they kind of drag and spoil the flow.

TIL: Joe Orton's screenplay "Up Against It", from which the song was named, has a character in it named Christopher Low. Fancy that!

For me, this is classic PSB, spinning up those old machines, at a frantic pace, aching lyrics, interesting insights, slightly embarrassing callbacks BUT also confident and marvelous, with unstoppable forward momentum.

Catalogue this along side Will-o-the-wisp, A man could get arrested, etc

NotInvisible wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 5:55 pm

NOBODY75 wrote: Sat 07 Feb 2026, 8:22 pm However, I was talking about the mid-90s and any decade before that, and even further back until a few years ago when the invasion of Trap, Urban, and that damn Reggaeton arrived. I do believe that quality mattered. Which doesn't mean that crap didn't reach the top and quality tracks didn't.

Your last sentence undermines your claim that quality mattered. It never has. And let’s face it, the mid ‘90s charts were full of crap like every other decade.

I shouldn't have expressed myself well. I'll try again. I believe that quality matters in pop music, and that the higher the quality of your song, the better your chances of reaching the top of the charts. Which doesn't mean—and I've never written this—that all quality songs are hits and all garbage never is. You're saying that every decade's charts have been full of garbage, and I'm telling you they've also been full of great songs. And for me, there are more quality songs than garbage in the top ten, which confirms my opinion that quality counts. You might think the opposite and therefore believe that success is a kind of lottery, or even that the worse the song, the greater its chances of success. We have different opinions on this particular topic

markus wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 10:02 pmIt was irony.

It wasn't, though.

NOBODY75 wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 11:11 pmI believe that quality matters in pop music, and that the higher the quality of your song, the better your chances of reaching the top of the charts.

But the charts have shown us over and over again across the decades that this simply isn't the case. Sometimes quality coincides with the pop zeitgeist and sometimes it doesn't. Even leaving aside obvious examples of rubbish number ones and amazing singles that don't even chart, the very fact that musical scenes vary across time disproves the assertion that quality matters. It's all about trends, not music. Love Comes Quickly got to 19 in a year when the radio was open to that kind of music - today it wouldn't chart at all. And you know what charted 15 places better, the same year? Anyone Can Fall in Love by Anita Dobson. Do we really want to pretend quality remotely entered into that?

jasonjohn wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 10:52 pmFor me, this is classic PSB, spinning up those old machines, at a frantic pace, aching lyrics, interesting insights, slightly embarrassing callbacks BUT also confident and marvelous, with unstoppable forward momentum.

Yeah, this one is a throwback - it could pretty easily fit on disc one of Alternative. Always been a favorite deeper cut of mine. The start of a nice little four-track run at the tail end of a patchy album, which will reach its peak with To Step Aside (another in a series of signs they were moving beyond pop), unfortunately undermined by Saturday Night Forever...

NotInvisible wrote: Mon 09 Feb 2026, 12:02 am

markus wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 10:02 pmIt was irony.

It wasn't, though.

NOBODY75 wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 11:11 pmI believe that quality matters in pop music, and that the higher the quality of your song, the better your chances of reaching the top of the charts.

But the charts have shown us over and over again across the decades that this simply isn't the case. Sometimes quality coincides with the pop zeitgeist and sometimes it doesn't. Even leaving aside obvious examples of rubbish number ones and amazing singles that don't even chart, the very fact that musical scenes vary across time disproves the assertion that quality matters. It's all about trends, not music. Love Comes Quickly got to 19 in a year when the radio was open to that kind of music - today it wouldn't chart at all. And you know what charted 15 places better, the same year? Anyone Can Fall in Love by Anita Dobson. Do we really want to pretend quality remotely entered into that?

It's clear you have a different opinion on this topic, and of course I respect it. But the fact that musical trends are key to success doesn't invalidate my opinion, because every musical style can have quality and it can have garbage. If, for example, grunge is popular for a while, those songs will dominate the charts over others from different styles. But even within grunge, I think you'll have an easier time finding success with better songs. Anyway, we do agree on the quality of Pets, and we'd better move on to The Survivors, because we're going to bore everyone

sterlinglush wrote: Sat 07 Feb 2026, 12:43 pm 'Up against it' -- I've always thought it was underrated. Would have made a good single.

Up to this point, I haven't been able to understand why people think this would be a good single (partly because of the way I think the verses drag under those long held notes) but then I remembered the surefire hit rule: "Can you hear a postie/cabbie whistling it?" And yeah, I can. So you guys might have a point after all.

Disco. wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 4:24 pm Up against is such a great track, really enjoying it, I remember that when I got the advance promotional tape in June(as far as I can recall, it may have been July) that was the track I really, really liked, good times,

Oh yeah? How'd you get one of those?? Do tell!

jasonjohn wrote: Sun 08 Feb 2026, 10:52 pm For me, this is classic PSB, spinning up those old machines, at a frantic pace, aching lyrics, interesting insights, slightly embarrassing callbacks BUT also confident and marvelous, with unstoppable forward momentum.

Catalogue this along side Will-o-the-wisp, A man could get arrested, etc

It's just a little number from our "Confident and Marvelous Range", dahling! (Never imagined it being held in the same regard as Will-o, but here we are!) Now I've had to pay attention to this song, I think what's surprising me most is how much it manages to say in so few words. Lines like "Long after the war has ended / we’re still in fatigues" and "So deep in quicklime / the bones of an old crime" manage to convey not only a lot of history but the trauma behind it too. Rich stuff.

NOBODY75 wrote: Mon 09 Feb 2026, 12:53 amBut the fact that musical trends are key to success doesn't invalidate my opinion

It kind of does, though, because quality songs outside the trend aren't likely to perform as well as garbage songs within the trend.

If, for example, grunge is popular for a while, those songs will dominate the charts over others from different styles. But even within grunge, I think you'll have an easier time finding success with better songs.

Oasis' Roll With It was a UK number two. I don't think anyone considers it a prime example of Britpop. It charted well because that's how imperial phases work, and there were a ton of external factors. It was beat by Country House, which... ditto. Whenever this line of reasoning comes up, I just think about Shaddap You Face. Quality has never mattered in pop culture. It's not even limited to music - most Best Picture nominees haven't made much money before their nominations (and many don't make much money after them), because 'quality' isn't why most people engage with entertainment. Fast & Furious and dumb boyband music will always outsell the good stuff, because good is usually challenging on some level, and often off-trend.

because we're going to bore everyone

That's certainly true!