The First Islam Country of Europe?

[whateverman42]

I can't believe I belong to the same species as people who believe there's an invisible man living in the sky, keeping score. Why people continue to abuse their minds in this day and age, when 'heresy' is no longer punishable, is beyond me. Spirituality, science and abstract concepts are more advanced and inspiring, but organized religion, all organized religions, are a joke. If religion doesn't blow us all up, everyone in the future will smirk at us the way we do now about Zeus and Osiris. Only they'd have eliminated, rather than substituted, god.

I find it really odd how grown adults live their whole lives fully believing in a fairy-tale and yet are functioning members of society. I trust my doctor with my health for example, but he goes to church. Its just, weird.

[Patrick Bateman]

Respect Zeus! Respect Osiris! Respect the Jolly Green Giant!

[BecciJ]

I find it really odd how grown adults live their whole lives fully believing in a fairy-tale and yet are functioning members of society. I trust my doctor with my health for example, but he goes to church. Its just, weird.

So by extending this idea out further, are you saying that you place your health in the hands of a doctor who probably prays to an invisible man for guidance and the strength to make the right decision when he is faced with any medical dilemma you may present? So your fate is in whose hands inevitably?

It's just, weird.

[whateverman42]

Well that's the thing; I depend on people, in fact most people daily, who are living with the psyche of a child. I don't see how one can grow up and gain knowledge and reconcile that with the rigidly one-dimensional idea of god. I think generally people just follow everyone else, there is a definite sheep mentality in humans. People rarely question why; daily life is full of unimportant tasks that distract.

Its easy to go to work, go home to your family, and go to church. Getting things done. A fictional story has become part of the routine, and noone asks why that is, but rather attend and feel good another thing is checked off the list. Not enough critical thinking in todays societies, too much blind faith. And its drilled into us that faith is a good trait. Never forget the millions to hundreds of millions of people who have been killed in the name of faith and god. How many have died as a result of cool reason and logic? I know I'm shoving my two cents in here pretty roughly, but religion is such a sick joke and its still treated with such reverence its maddening.

[glennjridge]

the way you explain your ideas you come off as quite the narcissist.

as if you came to your non-belief as a result of some great thought and epiphany
yet all us poor commoners who believe only did so because we were raised like sheep.

when one is drunk on the idea of their own intelligence and everyone else is obviously deluded, theres no fixing you.

the only consolation for poor old sheep me is to know you cant walk out the door,get into your car, and drive 3 minutes in any direction without passing a church,temple or mosque.

you aint george carlin, or bill hicks.the sooner you realize that the more tolerable you'll be to your family, friends and coworkers I'm sure you irritate when you get on the God topic and they look at each other and roll their eyes for the hundreth time.

[Your Funny Uncle]

Even the churches themselves use the sheep analogy, with their "pastors" and "flocks"...

When I was a kid I was open to the idea of god. My parents specifically left me to make up my own mind. I sang hymns in school and listened to parables etc etc, but the more I thought about it, the more it didn't make any logical sense. I think it's a pretty weak argument to accuse someone of intellectual snobbery just because they've taken the time to decide for themselves instead of following some doctrine.

I'm not saying that no theists ever thought for themselves, but the fact is that most people of faith share the same faith as their parents. They didn't take time and choose between all the available religions, they just believed what they were told. Kids are raised as "good catholics" or "good muslims" etc. etc. There is indoctrination going on and it's undeniable.

[glennjridge]

look, anyone that knows something about kids, knows most stuff goes right out the window when they get about the teen years.

in fact many atheists will tell you they were raised religious. yet they had no problem shaking off thierraised on belief.

when you become your own person,later around the college and after years you sort of go thru an examining period and you find yourself and what your believe or dont believe.

the thing is,atheists or the religious shouldnt think the other persons descsion was any less justified than their own.

[Your Funny Uncle]

the thing is,atheists or the religious shouldnt think the other persons descsion was any less justified than their own.

I agree, but only when the person in question made that choice without fear of being ostracised from their family/community for choosing a different path. I'd say that would be true for the vast majority of kids who were raised by atheists, but that's not the case for many of those who were raised religious. In fact, in some Muslim countries it's actually a capital offence to renounce Islam.

[markus]

I'm not saying that no theists ever thought for themselves, but the fact is that most people of faith share the same faith as their parents. They didn't take time and choose between all the available religions, they just believed what they were told. Kids are raised as "good catholics" or "good muslims" etc. etc. There is indoctrination going on and it's undeniable.

Yet when someone DOES do that, then it's rude and discriminatory to claim the faith you chose is somehow better than the others...it's a no win situation

[markus]

Well that's the thing; I depend on people, in fact most people daily, who are living with the psyche of a child. I don't see how one can grow up and gain knowledge and reconcile that with the rigidly one-dimensional idea of god. I think generally people just follow everyone else, there is a definite sheep mentality in humans. People rarely question why; daily life is full of unimportant tasks that distract.

Its easy to go to work, go home to your family, and go to church. Getting things done. A fictional story has become part of the routine, and noone asks why that is, but rather attend and feel good another thing is checked off the list. Not enough critical thinking in todays societies, too much blind faith. And its drilled into us that faith is a good trait. Never forget the millions to hundreds of millions of people who have been killed in the name of faith and god. How many have died as a result of cool reason and logic? I know I'm shoving my two cents in here pretty roughly, but religion is such a sick joke and its still treated with such reverence its maddening.

I would like to ask you and the likes of you this question:

The most common core essence to reach "wisdom" in many religions/philosphies is to overcome your own "ego" The idea is also the core of the most succesful rehabilitation programs to overcome different addiction problems like alcoholism and drug abuse. It's simply about surrendering yourself to a higher power, giving up your own will, and start focusing on others instead of yourself. Egoism always eventually leads to egodestruction, or chaos and problems for ohers on this planet. You might say "yeah but I'm not like them" But how common isn't it to say "nobody's perfect" when people make misstakes? What do people really mean by that? Most of the times we need someone else to point out the flaws in our characters because we always tend to see ourself as perfect no matter what we do.

So from this point of view, wouldn't it be rational to consider the idea (if you're an atheist) that evolution has provided us with this need for "god" as a survival mechanism to not completely wipe each other out from this planet because of egoism, selfisness, vanity, greed, et.c? Is the god concept really something to look down on, or are you just being blinded by your own ignorance and ego-delusions?

[markus]

Oh, and about sheep mentality, following a leader: How many people these days using the generalizing word "religion" aren't "against it" only because it's becoming the popular mainstream idea of today? The REAL truth is: religion can range all from sacrificing children, drinking blood, and incestual rape sex orgies and mass suicide sects, to sitting in concetration camps for refusing to murder for Hitler. It's so easy to generalize and say "it's all the same" but that's just more of the same ignorance, people unwilling to REALLY use their heads and educate themselves. Most of those people claiming be "undeluded" and rational would have probably reflected all the same ideas and values that were popular around them if they've lived 100 years ago, or at any time, or any place in history.

[whateverman42]

Glen, if I'm sorry if I'm coming across a snob; in truth I'm a bit more balanced, but if someone came to you and TOLD you the tooth fairy was real and you MUST believe in it as well... that's where I'm coming from. Its a myth with no basis in fact. You don't have to be a famous comedian to realize its a joke. Not to mention all the people tortured and killed for not believing. The church would STILL be doing that if society hadn't progressed, so their new and improved lovey dovey attitude doesn't impress me.

It's simply about surrendering yourself to a higher power, giving up your own will, and start focusing on others instead of yourself. Egoism always eventually leads to egodestruction, or chaos and problems for ohers on this planet. You might say "yeah but I'm not like them" But how common isn't it to say "nobody's perfect" when people make misstakes? What do people really mean by that? Most of the times we need someone else to point out the flaws in our characters because we always tend to see ourself as perfect no matter what we do.

Well I'm surprised you said that in defense of religion, because that's almost the same wording I'd use to criticize it. Do you honestly believe that 'giving up your own will' is healthy? Humans are meant to throw away responsibility? How about we believe in ourselves? Does that make too much sense?

I don't get your ego argument; that's a personal trait. I don't need to be god-fearing to keep me from going off the deep end. That's the same argument religees use when they ask 'if there is no god, why then would people be good?', as though we'll never progress to the point where we won't need a mythical figure promising retribution if we toe out of line. How about I try to be decent not because I'm scared, but because as a human being I have moral character. I think that's healthy, progressive, and logical.

[Your Funny Uncle]

So from this point of view, wouldn't it be rational to consider the idea (if you're an atheist) that evolution has provided us with this need for "god" as a survival mechanism to not completely wipe each other out from this planet because of egoism, selfisness, vanity, greed, et.c? Is the god concept really something to look down on, or are you just being blinded by your own ignorance and ego-delusions?

Not in the slightest. Do you have any evidence at all to suggest that atheists have a weaker moral compass or are more antisocial and egotistical than the religious, because I've certainly never seen such statistics. I think that we are a curious species and when we did not understand something our inventiveness caused us to conjure something to expain it. The more we understand, the less this invention is necessary. Unfortunately, we still don't (and may never) know for sure what happens after death and I think that here is where religion always has an attraction.

In evolutionary terms, we've evolved to be a social species, and to live in a society a certain set of ethics and norms are pretty much necessary. I don't see any need for them to have been "handed down from above." Personally I always try to be considerate of others. As to letting go of my ego I'm quite happy to accept that a doctor knows more than me about medicine or that a Lawyer would do a better job of representing me in a court case than I would on my own, so I have no problem with relinquishing control to a higher authoirty. I just don't believe in giving control to an authority that as far as can be seen does not exist.

[markus]

Glen, if I'm sorry if I'm coming across a snob; in truth I'm a bit more balanced, but if someone came to you and TOLD you the tooth fairy was real and you MUST believe in it as well... that's where I'm coming from. Its a myth with no basis in fact. You don't have to be a famous comedian to realize its a joke. Not to mention all the people tortured and killed for not believing. The church would STILL be doing that if society hadn't progressed, so their new and improved lovey dovey attitude doesn't impress me.

It's simply about surrendering yourself to a higher power, giving up your own will, and start focusing on others instead of yourself. Egoism always eventually leads to egodestruction, or chaos and problems for ohers on this planet. You might say "yeah but I'm not like them" But how common isn't it to say "nobody's perfect" when people make misstakes? What do people really mean by that? Most of the times we need someone else to point out the flaws in our characters because we always tend to see ourself as perfect no matter what we do.

Well I'm surprised you said that in defense of religion, because that's almost the same wording I'd use to criticize it. Do you honestly believe that 'giving up your own will' is healthy? Humans are meant to throw away responsibility? How about we believe in ourselves? Does that make too much sense?

I don't get your ego argument; that's a personal trait. I don't need to be god-fearing to keep me from going off the deep end. That's the same argument religees use when they ask 'if there is no god, why then would people be good?', as though we'll never progress to the point where we won't need a mythical figure promising retribution if we toe out of line. How about I try to be decent not because I'm scared, but because as a human being I have moral character. I think that's healthy, progressive, and logical.

Of course you don't get the ego argument since you're focused on YOURSELF when considering it, NOT what it's helping other people do. But it's not an easy thing to understand, I know. But as they say "there are no atheists in foxholes" many people need some rough times in their lifes before they have start considering spiritual things. I'd like you also consider the things I wrote later on about the variety of different religions and what they're encouraging people to do. There's a big difference in whose arms you throw yourself in, so to speak. And about believing in ourselves? What kind of people out there are creating the headlines of rapes, murdeders, child abuse? Are you pretending it's only religious people? Would people troughout history not have found SOME excuse to fight wars, commit horrible crimes? When you blindly follow you own will what happens when it changes? People don't born to be thiefs, murderers, or whatever, it's a path that one chooses at some point (psychological illness excluded)

[markus]

So from this point of view, wouldn't it be rational to consider the idea (if you're an atheist) that evolution has provided us with this need for "god" as a survival mechanism to not completely wipe each other out from this planet because of egoism, selfisness, vanity, greed, et.c? Is the god concept really something to look down on, or are you just being blinded by your own ignorance and ego-delusions?

Not in the slightest. Do you have any evidence at all to suggest that atheists have a weaker moral compass or are more antisocial and egotistical than the religious, because I've certainly never seen such statistics. I think that we are a curious species and when we did not understand something our inventiveness caused us to conjure something to expain it. The more we understand, the less this invention is necessary. Unfortunately, we still don't (and may never) know for sure what happens after death and I think that here is where religion always has an attraction.

In evolutionary terms, we've evolved to be a social species, and to live in a society a certain set of ethics and norms are pretty much necessary. I don't see any need for them to have been "handed down from above." Personally I always try to be considerate of others. As to letting go of my ego I'm quite happy to accept that a doctor knows more than me about medicine or that a Lawyer would do a better job of representing me in a court case than I would on my own, so I have no problem with relinquishing control to a higher authoirty. I just don't believe in giving control to an authority that as far as can be seen does not exist.

I think the whole idea that we're still evolving (if you're supporting it) , it's about time to give up the illusion. The world is becoming a really mad place to live in, it's destruction everywhere, not construction. Whatever technological discoveries are being made, is consuming earths resources and it all has to end. Troughout history the moral corruption,decandece, have always been warning signs that a civilisation is on the way down. The threats towrds the existence of mankind are so many that it seems it's becoming a taboo to discuss them. Instead people are more and more focused on selfish, shallow, "let's have fun while it lasts" mentality. This cant go on forever, everyone knows it deep inside...