Pet Shop Boys Community

amhilde wrote:As for Russia- Russia has always been a special case. When was Russia EVER part of Europe? The only time its ever been close has been in the major wars of the last 200 years where most of the time the mass of people and the bad weather saved them from being invaded. Russia is a special case, and I cant see them EVER joining up with the EU. Im not so sure if its a case of the EU stabbing Russia in the back but a case of Russia doing what Russia has always done- being different. Russia isnt the size of France, its a huge piece of land that stretches across many time zones and customs and religions, and spans east to west- touching upon Asia. Its a unique position that can possibly only be compared to Turkey. But regardless of its "progression" in the past few years its still a long long long LONG way from the reform needed to meet the benchmarks of EU membership. And if you look at the case of the Ukraine- they arent moving towards the EU, but towards Russia.

You're right in most of it , but still :

Turkey is going to join EU in 2007 . And geographically , Turkey is only part-European country , just like Russia ( Leningrad , for example , is perfectly-European , can't talk about Moscow , as I've never been there ) . There are also some problems in Turkey ( Galata_Turco , please don't kill me ! ) . So : who Turkey - yes , and Russia - no ?!?

Don't get me wrong : I have no problems whatsoever with Turkey joining , I just think that there is a clear discrimination of the Russians

PS : I haven't said Rumania and Bulgaria are joining NOW

PPS : What's so wrong about "being different" ? That's the beauty in the world : different cultures , races , people . It would be dead boring if all the world existed of twin-like , Western countries !

PPPS : It's natural that Ukraine is so similar to Russia - after all , both the countries have always been very similar in pretty much everything

PPPPS : OK , OK , enough with it , I'm stepping out !

Does Russia WANT to join EU?

I actually went out yesterday and joined the EU party in Warsaw -- there were thousands of people, happily dancing and chatting. Shame it ended so early -- about 0:30AM, it could have been so good. It still was a beautiful chaos.

There were some miserable right-wing maniacs with transparents saying "EU -- NO!" I guess they missed the fact that we weren't actually VOTING, it sort of happened before

When it ended, we went to an electro club where we discovered that they HAD a concert this night so we'd have to pay PLN 20 to get in. Yes, that's right -- because there WAS a concert. Of course it would be very thrilling to know you were in the same club where there WAS a concert an hour ago, but not thrilling enough to pay PLN 20, so we went to a pub, had a beer, then went to an all night shop, bought some more and landed in my place where we talked about how nice it is to join European Union

Never more will I have to show cash, return ticket and hotel reservation to customs in England -- for this alone it was worth to vote "YES".

About Russia...

Having just returned form a visit in Moscow and Kazan (my girlfriend is russian, her family migrated here in 1987), I have to admit I understand the hesitation to let Russia into the EU. Russia doesn't seem to be a 'free' country, not even a real democracy, I mean, Putin and his party controls everything. And as Luna Noctis quite rightly says, it has massive social problems - and let's not forget the almost forgotten war in Chechenia, where the Russians aren't exactly being the nicest people on earth.... what I mean to say is, Russian may have a place in the EU in the future, but right now, the country just isn't ready -and that has nothing to do with discrimation....

Provider wrote:Russia doesn't seem to be a 'free' country, not even a real democracy, I mean, Putin and his party controls everything.

As much as I don't want to agree with you , Kåre , you're 100% right on this one , unfortunately Russia was never a democracy , and probably would never be one

2 Ray :

Plenty of Russians DO want to join EU , but they feel like the arrogant West is simply spitting at their faces over and over again

I think Putin has a bit more to worry about right now than getting Russia ready for EU membership. That country barely has a leg to stand on, and right now its "make what you can and get out"- the rich gtting richer and the poor getting poorer. But isnt that the way its always been in Russia? You have an extremely wealthy class that preys on the poor who always seem to bear the after effects in their own way, and there is an extreme level of corruption. IN a way, its very similar to China, not just with corruption and poor banking and the like, but with the criminal gangs, the wide disparity between rich and poor, and the inability or unwillingness of the government to solve some basic social issues that will, in the near future, result in a social crisis that could potentially set the nation backwards. A good example- the education system is failing the young people of both countries. You simply cannot have a functioning, working society when your population is uneducated or undereducated.

Ray wrote:Never more will I have to show cash, return ticket and hotel reservation to customs in England -- for this alone it was worth to vote "YES".

That's it, definitely not voting Blair in the next election!

technotrancemix wrote:That's it, definitely not voting Blair in the next election!

YAY! Another vote for Charles Kennedy!

rags wrote:YAY! Another vote for Charles Kennedy!

Doubtful. Very doubtful.

technotrancemix wrote:

rags wrote:YAY! Another vote for Charles Kennedy!

Doubtful. Very doubtful.

You're going to vote green? I mean surely you won't vote for Count Dracula?

Your Funny Uncle wrote:You're going to vote green? I mean surely you won't vote for Count Dracula?

I think my vote stays with Tory this time.

amhilde wrote:A good example- the education system is failing the young people of both countries. You simply cannot have a functioning, working society when your population is uneducated or undereducated.

I don't know how it is today , but back in the days of USSR the education in the empire was among the best in the world , if not the best ( and no , I'm far from being a supporter of the USSR/Communism ! ) .

So many people in Russia are very poor not because they're "uneducated" or dumb/primitive , but because the salaries are extremely low there . In any normal country , doctors , engineers and scientists earn decent money and can happily belong to the upper-middle class ( sometimes they can become pretty wealthy people , depending on how much they work etc ) . In Russia , those people earn maybe 50$ a month - it's just not right ! And as for salaries for teachers or "just" nurses ... I'll better shut up , before I'll make some people here cry ... or laugh !

And now , I'd like to ask Ray or anybody else who knows : why the hell are the right-wingers so much against their countries joining the EU ?

Luna Noctis wrote:

amhilde wrote:A good example- the education system is failing the young people of both countries. You simply cannot have a functioning, working society when your population is uneducated or undereducated.

I don't know how it is today , but back in the days of USSR the education in the empire was among the best in the world , if not the best ( and no , I'm far from being a supporter of the USSR/Communism ! ) .

So many people in Russia are very poor not because they're "uneducated" or dumb/primitive , but because the salaries are extremely low there . In any normal country , doctors , engineers and scientists earn decent money and can happily belong to the upper-middle class ( sometimes they can become pretty wealthy people , depending on how much they work etc ) . In Russia , those people earn maybe 50$ a month - it's just not right ! And as for salaries for teachers or "just" nurses ... I'll better shut up , before I'll make some people here cry ... or laugh !

And now , I'd like to ask Ray or anybody else who knows : why the hell are the right-wingers so much against their countries joining the EU ?

Hey Luna, the Russian mafia are welcome in West London, you know.

That's the problem with plutocracies - there are always the have-nots.

Russia has always needed a Tsar, be it Catherine, Stalin or Putin - as far as I am aware Putin is still popular, isn't he? Only when the people shake off their chains will things change. Don't hold out any hope though - we still have a Queen wrapped in ermine while the homeless shiver through the night, and a war criminal for a Prime Minister.

Democracy - don't you just love it?

Luna Noctis wrote:And now , I'd like to ask Ray or anybody else who knows : why the hell are the right-wingers so much against their countries joining the EU ?

To be honest -- no idea. Perhaps because the left-wing government has led Poland to the EU entry? Perhaps because they go on at length about Catholicism and Tradition and Morality and how the Rotten Europe has committed Horrible Crimes such as Allowing Abortion (or as the right wing refer to it "Murder of the Conceived Child"), That Horrible Drug Marijuana and Euth... I mean Murdering Our Grandmas? *sigh* There were also ridiculous assumptions that Union just wants us to buy their products and they won't give anything in return -- which is kinda silly since I don't think EU is exactly desperate to keep Poland poor, if "they" want "us" to buy "their" products they have to give us some cash to spend on them

The campaign right-wingers led against entering EU was mostly based on comparing EU to USSR and saying that Hitler also wanted to join all the countries together. Which proved quite efficient in distracting the less intelligent voters but didn't actually explain WHY they were so much against EU.

The only thing that I am afraid of regarding our entrance to the European Union is Poles in the EU parliament -- we had a taster already which left me (and most people I know) more than ashamed. Ugh...

Ray wrote: The campaign right-wingers led against entering EU was mostly based on comparing EU to USSR and saying that Hitler also wanted to join all the countries together.

Oh dear

Hmm, isn't the classic right-wing/conservative argument against EU and other supranational institutions, that they mean a loss of sovereignty for the nationstates?

You know Ray, the leading NO-party in Denmark had a VERY 'sympathetic' ( ) campaign going "Welcome to 40 mio Poles in the EU", meaning to scare people about the mad easternes coming to take their jobs.