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your trying to show moral quivelency greg. ie, the Israeli are just as bad as hamas.
doesnt work. wont ever work.

the Israeli allow arabs and palestinians to live and work within its own areas, it warns residents of areas its going to bomb, it has a FAR superior military force yet continually puts up with these palestinians and arab forces that continually attack it since 1948.these...are facts.

a house divided against itself doesnt stand, so your ideas of genocide and moral quivency in light of what I provided above simply fail.a genocidal Israel that allows its enemys to work inside its borders,invades gaza multiple times then pulls out,and warns residents of where its going to bomb?

doesnt work.

glennjridge wrote: greg,like normal beings,I have empathy to people who deserve empathy. palestinians are allowed to work in israel and have the same rights as Israeli. that little tibit should give you apause for thought about your primitive and ancient anti-semetic views.

Come On, pollyanna!

Israel's Arabs are a problem for Israel...

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Articl ... 54,00.html

glennjridge wrote:your trying to show moral quivelency greg. ie, the Israeli are just as bad as hamas.

Again, you are deliberately twisting my words.
You know very well, I am hostile to Hamas.

I don't think you are reading my posts clearly.
So lets just let it go.

glennjridge wrote:your trying to show moral quivelency greg. ie, the Israeli are just as bad as hamas.

I don't think he is, I think he's just pointing out that they both have a long and miserable record of doing the wrong thing.

But you have to go back to page 15 to find the most pertinent thing Greg has said:

gregf wrote:Seeing this as tit-for-tat is a cause of the problem. My interest is in fixing the problem.

You have Israel supporters (like you, Glenn) blaming Palestinians for everything and Palestine supporters (like Galata) blaming Israel for everything, when really everyone should be acknowledging that both sides have made grave mistakes, but moreover, that until we stop trying to apportion blame, we will never find a way of resolving this problem.

It's really time to draw a line under the past and stop harping on about historical injustices committed by A or B. Let's all start focusing on what we need to do to achieve a long-lasting, peaceful two-state solution and leave the accusatory finger-pointing to the fanatics.

you make a point danny. anyways,since we are all just talking, at the the of the day though, my view is a bit more religious. I happen to think this discord for the Israeli all thru history is a part of a larger plan.

I dont think its ever meant to be fixed. although I know not many people agree with inserting religion into politics.
if they can get along thats great. realistically I dont think it ever will.

glennjridge wrote:anyways,since we are all just talking, at the the of the day though, my view is a bit more religious

A perfect example of why religion needs to be stamped out. But I agree it's useless to pretend anything's going to be accomplished on an Internet message board.

glennjridge wrote:I gave you an answer to your question patrick, you just dont accept it.

You didn't, actually. You dodged the obvious counterexamples and pretended 33 nations have the right to throw hundreds of thousands of people out of their homeland and install an occupation (especially when who voted against it? Oh yeah, the countries in the region!). When do you plan on returning the US to the natives?

if you think you are the revision guy in the history of the world that is going to school us that anti-semitism is some kind of parnoia of Israel

Not at all. There is clearly antisemitism in the world. By equally, criticizing the Israeli government often has nothing to do with Judaism or antisemitism and it's craven to pretend it does. Further, many of us have been equally critical of Hamas.

as far as the land encrouched,where you been rookie? the Israeli take control of areas that are used as attack points and create buffer zones

Yep. They say that a lot. And the Taliban are freedom fighters.

patrick,your in a nice soft western dream world. staging areas where attacks come from are routinly taken over to prevent them from being strategically used as attack areas again....and again..... the US did in Iraq near the green zones with Iraqi towns for many months until it was shown they could be handed back with reliable safety for them.thats just smart.

your thought process is a fanciful notion only someone safe within a safe western country can make.allow the attack staging areas to remain free to stage attacks.

and once again,the UN said the Israeli could live there. whether you agree or not, they also signed an agreement in 93 the oslo agreement.

until the UN is done away with,and all those countrys involved in the UN dont want to do it anymore, tough cookies.it was set up for a reason.feel free not to agree with your police dept.but its law. the UN made a decision and there are people who decided for flimsy reasons they couldnt live with another people.well thats too bad. now they reaped from that mentality. hope they are enjoying.

glennjridge wrote:patrick,your in a nice soft western dream world.

You know that the ad hominems merely prove you can't tackle the arguments themselves, right?

For example:

and once again,the UN said the Israeli could live there

Repeatedly saying this doesn't actually address the fact that the UN vote carries no moral weight. Especially once we look at how it shook down and realize it was a case of the West voting to get the Jews out of their back yard against the expressed will of the nations in the affected area.

None of which of course has any bearing on Israeli state terrorism nor the illegal settlements nor the dehumanization of Palestinians by Israelis nor its repeated rewarding of known terrorists with prime government jobs nor the demonstrable expansionist moves made since 1947.

Israel sadly is the ultimate example of not learning from experience. I won't imply moral equivalency to the Nazi regime but they're certainly far closer than any of their Western allies.

(And before the tired antisemitism charges get bandied about in lieu of an actual logical argument once more, by "Israel" I am referring to the government and its subjects.)

Meanwhile, I eagerly await your explanation of why Palestinians should be returning the Jews' ancestral home while you needn't return the native Americans'. Should be good for a laugh!

patrick...patrick... you need a history lesson so you dont keep arguing using arguments you've been told rather than history itself so you see how the native american analogy doesnt apply.

first,Jews had lived in the land now known as Israel, named "Palestine" BY THE ROMANS no less......first century bce. 600 years before there were any people now known as palestinian today there.its why the land is land to holy places for the jews. because they LIVED there.get it?

second, you seem ignorant of the fact that israel BOUGHT the land . they werent dropped down like a rock from outerspace......AND the palestinian leaders AGREED they could live there,they even signed an agreement

so, for your moral weight law regarding the UN,imagine a trial going on, between 2 neighbors regarding land.

one neighbor bought the land from the other.....got the title.....gave the money,.....got zoning approval...... and now the other neighbors neighbors.... dont like the new neighbor and violently attack the new neighbor and their house.

a court of law,the law, and the adverage person on the street would rightly say,too bad.

all these things you complain about the loss of land, the so called dehumanizing of the palestinian people,(lord knows how that happens when so many work inside Israel) is the result of not being able to get along with neighbor.

as far as the laughable expressed will of the nations in the affected area, do you know how little land Israel is? do you know how easy it would be for the palestinians to go to jordan and have so much room for their own area? guess what.....these other nations want nothing to do with the palestinians.

For the record, the post above is so full of fantasy, propaganda and lies,
it is not possible to respond. It would take days of work.

I urge fair thinking people to check other sources.

The posting, does however, clearly illustrate where the real problem is.

thats a pretty nasty statement coming from you greg considering I only made a few points in my post. so lets see if your statement was bluster or truth. heres the points I made.

1)that the romans coined the term palestinian...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition ... f_the_term
The name Palestine, which the Romans had bestowed on the conquered and subjugated land of Judea


2)and that the UN agreed the Israel could live there and that Israel bought land....and that they singned an agreement which is called the oslo agreement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Following World War I and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, Palestine came under the control of the United Kingdom through the Sykes-Picot Agreement.
which was then turned over to the UN. think of the UN like a landlord.the palestinians didnt own that land since they never had a true claim to it by any legal means.

In 1947, the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab.[9] On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Agreement
The Oslo Accords, officially called the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements or Declaration of Principles (DOP) was a milestone in the Palestinian - Israeli conflict. It was the first direct, face-to-face agreement between Israel and political representatives of Palestinians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_se ... _ownership

the majority of the land currently occupied by the new settlements was vacant or belonged to the state (from which it was leased) or bought fairly from the Palestinians.

3) that the Israeli were on that land before the people known as palestinians were even there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Early_roots

Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule.[26] Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

After the Jewish rebellions of the first and second centuries CE, the Romans merged the province of Iudaea with Galilee, Samaria and Idumaea, uniting the entire area in a new province bearing the Greco-Latin name, Syria-Palaestina.[23][24]. Giving the Latinized name Latin: Palaestina to the region of the Iudaea Province by the Roman emperor Hadrian[25][26] following the crushing Bar Kochba's revolt in 132-135[27] is considered an attempt to suppress Jewish national feelings.[28][29

this shows that the the jews have a long history of that land even before it was even coined palestine.

now the propaganda charge you mentioned can be done away with cause you types use that word 50 times before lunch when your online arguing against the jew or america.

but which ones are the lies?

Try being called anti-Semitic half a dozen times.

For the record, I believe your intentions are good but that goodness
has been taken advantage of. Some of the things you quote are lies made by others.

It's not much fun doing a long detailed post, just to have ignored, is it ?
But I will try to respond, given time. (It's >40C here this weekend).

I'm just cutting and pasting from sources that are supposed to be informational.
I dont do this to get responses, I just put it out there.

Last edited by glennjridge on Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Sprung. Just joshing, but no more.