Pet Shop Boys Community

yeah instead of typing it all and then posting I was typing and posting as I was doing it.
one time I did this huge post awhile ago and when I hit post the operation timed out and I lost everything.

not unlike me at the poker table last night

glennjridge wrote:you need a history lesson

History: 1947
History: 1948
History: 2009

You don't really need anything else. We're not talking about return a people to their rightful land. We're talking about a gulf of centuries - a far greater span than the genocide of the native Americans. No living Jew was put back in their house. It's a ludicrous argument to bring in ancient history, so obviously inane it can only be made on a religious basis.

A bit of basic genetics might also be in order for you considering the latest research shows Jews and Palestinians are essentially the same people. One of life's silly jokes there. This has nothing to do with "peoples" or "history" or any of that nonsense. It's a random group of strangers joined by faith who came together because even the West didn't want them, occupied a hostile land and then essentially kicked off a holy war by installing an expansionist militant theocracy frequently headed up by known terrorists. It's very telling that the younger generation of Israelis and western Jews is beginning to rebel against the party line.

the so called dehumanizing of the palestinian people,(lord knows how that happens when so many work inside Israel)

Lord knows how racism was possible in the 1950s when so many black men worked in white businesses. Now I know this is yet another post of yours where you lapse back to bizarre aphorisms and gross generalizations instead of even attempting to tackle the logical arguments or demonstrated historical fact undermining your position, but this one really takes the cake.

as far as the laughable expressed will of the nations in the affected area, do you know how little land Israel is?

Hence its clear expansionist drive as proven by regional maps across the last six decades. Meanwhile, a look at who exactly voted for what is very instructive. Gee, nobody could have seen this coming, could they? Your argument would be more convincing if we'd given them land in the West. Or given the gypsies a nation. Or given the native Americans a nation. Or indeed had any sort of logical underpinning at all.

I think basically at the end of the day you have to accept from from a purely objective standpoint divorced of religion, the situation in the Middle East looks like insanity, with maniacs leading the nations on all sides and ordinary people caught up in the middle.

patrick wrote:

glennjridge wrote:you need a history lesson

you don't really need anything else. We're not talking about return a people to their rightful land. We're talking about a gulf of centuries - a far greater span than the genocide of the native Americans. No living Jew was put back in their house. It's a ludicrous argument to bring in ancient history, so obviously inane it can only be made on a religious basis.

thats an emotional point. the palestinians have actually fooled you and so many via the media with their constant pulling at the heartstrings into thinking thats legally their land, no more than you feeling sorry for a squatter who lives inside a box in front of a MACY's store downtown simply because "hey thats willys spot"so let him stay there. thats not the law. thats not legal.

society falls apart when the ruling bodys put in places policys arent followed because so and so doesnt agree on ideas of moral or unmoral hogwash which is subjective.
once again....your issue is with the UN and the british who gave that land to the UN who gave it to the Israeli.they have the legal rights to do what they did.
your view isnt legal.mine is.

patrick wrote:

glennjridge wrote:you need a history lesson

the so called dehumanizing of the palestinian people,(lord knows how that happens when so many work inside Israel)

Lord knows how racism was possible in the 1950s when so many black men worked in white businesses. Now I know this is yet another post of yours where you lapse back to bizarre aphorisms and gross generalizations instead of even attempting to tackle the logical arguments or demonstrated historical fact undermining your position, but this one really takes the cake.

with all due respect, african americans werent commiting offensive attacks against the US for their plight.so thats a wrong analogy.the evidence shows that the Israeli have no problem living and working with the palestinians and arabs within their own areas despite the MANY ongoing attacks from these people yet the palestinians arent reciprocating.

personality is a key factor here between the 2 groups.
one culture is trying,and the other isnt. its not hard to break this down into basic simple terms.

hey I'm with you I agree religion is the key thats causing all this problems.thats the reason. thats why all this talk is useless because nothing will ever change as long as thats the issue. its the reality.but as long as we are talking legal and whats not.........

the Israeli legally got that land. legally either means something in this world or it doesnt. thats all I'm sayin.

I am not combating Israel ; I am combating ignorance.

glenjridge wrote:second, you seem ignorant of the fact that israel BOUGHT the land . they werent dropped down
like a rock from outerspace......AND the palestinian leaders AGREED they could live there,they even signed an agreement

so, for your moral weight law regarding the UN,imagine a trial going on, between 2 neighbors regarding land.

one neighbor bought the land from the other.....got the title.....gave the money,.....got zoning approval...... and now the
other neighbors neighbors.... dont like the new neighbor and violently attack the new neighbor and their house.

a court of law,the law, and the adverage person on the street would rightly say,too bad.

Utter fantasy. All of it.

The Wiki quotes you reference do not even come close to supporting your statement. It is hard to find any connection at all.

Your suggesting The Oslo agreement was a sale of the land of Palestine, by the Palestinians to the founders of Israel.
Sorry but The Oslo agreement was 70 years later, in 1993. It was an agreement for the two sides to talk. Nothing more.
Israel did not buy the land. It is a lie to suggest it.

You quote Wiki as

Wiki wrote:the majority of the land currently occupied by the new settlements was vacant or belonged to the state

Well lets add what you left out

Wiki wrote:According to the Israeli government, the majority of the land currently occupied by the new settlements was vacant or belonged to the state

This has nothing to do with the creation of Israel. It is referencing settlers taking land in the West Bank today.
Wrong time, wrong place. Even so, it is a lie by the Israeli government that no one accepts.


Of course Jewish people lived there in biblical time. So did another people the "Philistines" which the name Palestine is derived from.
If you use the bible to legitimise things, then there should be a muti-ethnic Palestine.

You quote Wiki to imply Jews lived in Palestine continuously. But the article says the opposite.

Wiki wrote:Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire
in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews.

You quote the 1948 act of the UN to divide Palestine into two states.
So you are saying the legal border of Israel is the 1948 border ?

glenjridge wrote:do you know how easy it would be for the palestinians to go to jordan and have so much room for their own area?

You are advocating genocide, the destruction of a race or nationality.

glenjridge wrote: guess what.....these other nations want nothing to do with the palestinians.

That's a rash thing for an American to say. After WW2 the holocuast survivors wanted to emigrate to America.
The U.S. did not want them and so threw its support into the creation of Israel.


You have been lied to Glen. They have been lying to you for years.

Your suggesting The Oslo agreement was a sale of the land of Palestine, by the Palestinians to the founders of Israel.
Sorry but The Oslo agreement was 70 years later, in 1993. It was an agreement for the two sides to talk. Nothing more.
Israel did not buy the land. It is a lie to suggest it.

I am not using the oslo agreement to show the jews have ownership of that land greg, like a lawyer I am using everything I have from oslo agreements.....to the UN mandate.....to the transfer of that land from the british to the UN which then gave it to Israel to show the Israeli didnt come in illegally like a conquering army.this is important, as it shows that I'm looking at things in a legal means and your looking at things in an emotional way which isnt legal. the palestinians didnt have ownership...the israel didnt have ownership......the UN did. its decision was LEGAL

besides,one thing thats noticeable, you seem to be ignorant of the fact that like its name, it was called the oslo AGREEMENT.I'm using it as further proof that agreements were made in the history of these 2 groups on legal means between Israel/palestinian as far as relations.not about ownership of land.

The Accords were finalized in Oslo, Norway on 20 August 1993, and subsequently officially signed at a public ceremony in Washington D.C. on 13 September 1993, with Yasser Arafat signing for the Palestine Liberation Organization and Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin signing for the State of Israel. It was witnessed by Warren Christopher for the United States and Andrei Kozyrev for Russia, in the presence of US
once again, though, an agreement apparently means nothing if only one party is interested in follwoing the agreement.hey, I dont like all laws either. but its part of life greg. it shouldnt be an excuse for violence.

Of course Jewish people lived there in biblical time. So did another people the "Philistines" which the name Palestine is derived from.
If you use the bible to legitimise things, then there should be a muti-ethnic Palestine.

You quote Wiki to imply Jews lived in Palestine continuously. But the article says the opposite

not clear on your meaning of "continously."on one hand your saying "of course" the jews lived there during biblical time, then you switch gears and say they didnt. which is it?
in the sense they were pushed out from their land,and as thus couldnt live there continously? well thats a big duh greg.

You quote the 1948 act of the UN to divide Palestine into two states.
So you are saying the legal border of Israel is the 1948 border ?

what are you sayin? seeing as egypt, jordan and syria seized lands the UN designated in 1947 for the independent Palestinian Arab state.

and further if your going to mention the mandate, 3 days before the british mandate was to end, Israel had to go to warThe war was declared by the Arabs, after their rejection of the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (UN General Assembly Resolution 181) that would have created an Arab state and a Jewish state

you know why I bring up these things greg, its because I am showing,every...step of the way,the Israeli were trying to find a way to live with the palestinians legally and every step of the way,they....or their neighbors attacked Israel when they could have made it work.

That's a rash thing for an American to say. After WW2 the holocuast survivors wanted to emigrate to America.
The U.S. did not want them and so threw its support into the creation of Israel

your a laugh riot greg,I'll give you that. its true some people wanted to emigrate to america,not unlike they were emigrating whevere they could for lack of their own home. that was NEVER going to be anything to replace having their holy land back.

like I said to patrick, in this world, there is law....or there is unlawful.....there is authority....there is legal and illegal.
the british who had control over that land gave it to the UN who gave it to Israel.

that was a LEGAL action. they had the right to do so whether emotionally you think its not right to do that to the palestinians.
your arument is an emotional one, and as such can be done away with, as unfair as you think it is, the tenant isnt in control over the landlord.

Glen the issue here is your pride.
We have proved our case, both morally and legally, but you just argue.

Israel could not exist without the destruction of another nation.
Rather than help us solve that problem, you bury your guilt in blaming the victims.

It is a problem that many Israelis understand better than you.
And it is clear to everyone, you care more about your ego than Israel.

Please take a day to think about this.

I think were done here....again.

glennjridge wrote:I think were done here....again.

Oh I don't know about that.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 195838.stm

I wish to express my utter disgust at the criminal actions of this Israeli government.

Not at Israeli people, many of whom want peace.

It is so frustrating how some in the West make excuses for Likud (Israel conservatives),
giving them carte blanche to go on committing atrocities forever.

But what amazes me most is the stupidity of people who wonder why
the West is in conflict with the Muslim world.

And I suppose in a few posts time, someone will make vile insults against someone,
requiring a thread lock, thus shutting down our free speech again.

It's all so sad.

this whole situation is nothing but a meaningless discussion for us to do online.you,me, can wax on about the supposed criminal actions of the israeli.

but the israeli people dont have our luxury.this is all very real for them and they have to live next to these people and countrys with crazies at the helm.

nobody really cares. the palestinians have just used up their well of sympathy.this will die out really quickly.besides, its already been reported there is video showing these "peaceful activitsts" hitting a solder as he repels DOWN from the copter. obviously, these people didnt get the memo on humanitarian behaviour.
the israeli have every right to check as theres been too many insidious ways weapons get shipped to hamas.

glennjridge wrote:its already been reported there is video showing these "peaceful activitsts" hitting a solder as he repels DOWN from the copter. obviously, these people didnt get the memo on humanitarian behaviour.

Yes, quite outrageous. If a bunch of murderous bastards wanted to board my boat, I'd certainly be in the wrong to strike one of them. I think a couple of the circumcised Nazis bruised their toes as they came on board. The Israelis are certainly very concerned about their injuries.

the israeli have the ability to sink the craft from the air....they have the ability to sink it from on the water......they have the ability to sink it from below the water....they have the ability to sink it secretly....yet, they sent a team to repel down from a helicopter to a boat on what was probably choppy water.

obviously a search party. not a execution team. they were looking for weapons.

north korea just sunk a boat and nobody cared and that was the likeable south koreans.
the israeli if anything should be commended for their tempered actions. like I said though, its already reported that people on the boat were beating on the soldiers as they came down.

they lost the coveted high ground now needed for a media war against the israeli.remember jenna? me hardly either.

colonel ben moses shalom ridge wrote:the israeli if anything should be commended for their tempered actions.

Does Turkey have a nuclear bomb? It is likely that Turks are among the dead.

I dont care if they were americans that got killed. Hamas getting weapons via "humanitarian aid" happens and the israel checking this boat IMO is a neccesary precaution for a people living next to a hostile people.

but this is pointless anyways. its the palestinians this boat was headed for. nobody cares or gives anything but lip service for a week or two regarding that lot.people are hip to their "plight".

The U.S.A. has always been on the side of Israel, because the entire U.S. economy was built by Jews. Turkey does not have such good relations with the United States, like Israel, so the whole mess will continue, sometimes artificially causing emergency meeting at the UN. While the U.S. on Israel's side, all of Israel will be unpunished.
Everything goes to that part of the Middle East would create their coalition such as NATO, it will gradually all unhappy country, then begin a gradual invasion of Islam into Europe. In any case, all lead to war or to provoke, to start a bigger war. And those people who make it all perfectly understood.

America is far away. But Europe may be seriously affected by this, especially those countries where many Muslims - France, etc.

It is very simple.