Pet Shop Boys Community

I for one don't feel guilty or angry about editing my posts

Michael

FirthofForth wrote:

too late firth of forth! you already made the bug example an issue.its set in stone here on the forum.
you didnt ....consider it ....a non-issue, hence you felt guilty because you inherantly felt it wrong enough to bring it up.

how you would feel days or weeks later means nothing. as after the fact... people sometimes need to reconcile their guilt.but thats just to stop the unease they feel. thats not talking about the initial inherant notion you got after killing the bugs that it probabaly was wrong.
that initial voice you heard was the pure honest bar.

welcome to an inherant notion of right and wrong.

Here is the problem: A HUGE problem from your view. What I feel about squishing a but, is not what my girlfriend feels much less someone else feels. I imagine some here have no problem with killing bugs in thier apartment or house, others are inbetween, and some try never to. Some feel guilt, some never do, some are inbetween.

Since you and whateverman fail to address other points, I'll stick with the bug. Why is it always wrong to kill a bug? I must tell you, there are some bugs I'm very emotional about, such as centipedes, I want them DEAD! And then some bugs like beetles and ladybugs that I'm fine with being around. Not sure if you can make much of a categorical imperative out of that.

There is the problem also of events where you feel no guilt and then later you feel guilt, so the opposite of the reconcile. Most people have guilt at some point in their life (although perhaps some have very very little, while some have continual guilt). So, sure, I admit that. But what that guilt tells us about right and wrong is nothing. We all feel guilty about different things. What Joe Blow or Jack The Lad feels guilty about down the street, to me, is a giant waste of time.

I'm not adressing other points because you're all over the place. debates pivot on idea that both partys are at least grounded. I'm not being nasty but your not playing with a full deck.you mention having been on 40-50 psychotropic drugs and in therapy. thats not the M.O of a person who's bringing a briefcase to the meeting.

you having differing views on the killing of bugs to your girlfriends doesnt mean that your girlfriend views killing as something good and you as something bad.
women are scared of bugs and they respond with violence. that's an emotional reaction thats overriding whether killing it is even good or bad.

and I'm not telling you killing bugs is wrong. I'm telling you your own conscious is telling you that.
whether its subjective by bug type I could careless,but your...reaction was its an issue.

that's what we humans do. we make it subjective to reconcile the killing.the taking of life. we decide that one bug is cute and another is a pest. killing them is wrong in eithercase, but we have rationalized one death as fine, and the other as wrong. but both are wrong. its just that you just are such a tortured handwringer that you've overanaylized the reconciling process and confused it with condoning because we feel on way one day and other another day that killing is ok.

its not, end result.

Who can even tell what your position is at this point?

You say:

and I'm not telling you killing bugs is wrong

and you say:

but both are wrong.

You are telling me what is wrong, but not why. Please tell us why.

You also make horrible ad hominum attacks:

I'm not adressing other points because you're all over the place. debates pivot on idea that both partys are at least grounded. I'm not being nasty but your not playing with a full deck.you mention having been on 40-50 psychotropic drugs and in therapy. thats not the M.O of a person who's bringing a briefcase to the meeting.

That address none of my argument but does bring in a red herring to throw off the fact that you can't answer any of my questions:

I'm not adressing other points because you're all over the place.

women are scared of bugs and they respond with violence.

All women are scared of bugs? What a stereotype! You don't know anything about my girlfriend, nor other women for that matter.

The "inherent" good and bad feelings we have are part of culture. They differ in each of us from the outset. I can, and have given, many examples of that. You are saying that is not true, and the only example you can give is that all women are scared of bugs so they are violent to them? Not a great example.

If you raise a human outside of society, they will likely have almost none of the reactions to good and bad that we can talk about here. And because societies differ, and parental raising differs, those reactions differ in each of us. You may not like it, but there are people who feel like it's always wrong to kill any bug, and always ok to kill any bug or animal for that matter.

I've also gone a long way to describe why a discussion of normalcy is not as easy as saying most people are normal and there are some exceptions. Yet, you attack me anyway for being on paxil and zoloft. I'm not on them anymore, I've taken control of my life. But you can make what assumptions you like about me. It just won't help your argument on here.

I think the most obvious example of differing "inherent" feelings, of "good and bad" deal with music. Some of us like New York city boy, some think it's a huge mistake by the boys. Well, which is it? It it a good song, or as bad a waste as Timbaland?

I think the most obvious example of differing "inherent" feelings, of "good and bad" deal with music. Some of us like New York city boy, some think it's a huge mistake by the boys. Well, which is it? It it a good song, or as bad a waste as Timbaland?

Deschanel wrote:Enjoyed reading this conversation. Still despise Canadian Whateverman's lying hideous avatar. He clearly has a brain, but so did the lobster I ate tonight. I preferred the lobster, it didn't insultingly inject the nasty side of US politics every time he reared his ugly face.

What can I do to get you to leave me alone? And stop trying to make me feel guilty for having an opinion on the US. What happens there affects us all, especially the country on top of you. If you go totalitarian, we're next. I still think your knee-jerk reaction to scream racist at my avatar highlights your own racist tendencies, or at best, shows a sheep-like mentality to believe the smears the media throws at free-thinkers. I get it, we can make fun of Bush all we want, but not Obama because he's black! Tell me, how would people understand the joker association without white make-up?

All the contemporary moral issues of our day: Abortion, gay rights, immigration, veganism vs eating meat, etc...what are your answers on these that are SO absolute. Do you actually claim to know if abortion is right or wrong for humans, and that all humans should follow the answer that is so obvious to you? If it is truly always wrong to squish a bug, I do hope you never ever eat meat too? DO ADDRESS THIS PLEASE!

Yikes. You do NOT understand what I'm saying at all, which is why I don't want to continue this. I don't think I can be any clearer, but one more time. I am not saying I'm a saint: I squish bugs, I eat meat, etc. But I know when I squish a bug I should have opened a window and let it out. It is just that tendency when we inherently know we're going against the yin of the universe. Since I can't be perfect, I try to fill the white side of the yin/yang as much as possible, because that's what feels right.

There are things I have no idea about. The spark of life is the most mystical thing to me. What is the difference between a dead tree and a live one? I like to think there is an invisible 5D web of energy/life strung throughout the universe, with threads constantly taking life from dying things and threads shooting down giving life to others. There is some order to things I think, and while not in the sense of some fatherly figure commanding us to love him or else burn forever, compassion and empathy should be strived for. This is because the natural order leans to good, and ourselves being products of the universe realizing itself, we have a duty to follow what's in our make-up, or else feel guilt or learn to bury that guilt with anger, rage, psychosis, etc.

Fast food is bad because of its inefficiency, dependence on oil, the way it treats living creatures as mere products (not many things enrage me, but the absolute dehumanizing coldness that comes with the way we kill cows and chickens for fast food makes me fume), and its obvious overabundance on fats and salt. I didn't expect you to question why I put it in the 'bad' category. A discussion like this needs some things ot be taken for granted, which you simply cannot do. I don't have time to write a scholarly paper, I thought this would be a brief exchange of ideas.

And Timbaland sucks the way a leather belt would suck as a replacement for breakfast. Are we no longer allowed to call a spade a spade without being labelled elitist? Cripples aren't cripples! That's a bad word! They're handicapped! Oh wait, not anymore, they're, um, differently abled. This increasing inability to voice opinions and water everything down so as not to offend anybody is becoming ludicrous. What's wrong with being direct and honest?

All women are scared of bugs? What a stereotype! You don't know anything about my girlfriend, nor other women for that matter.

look,you reffered to yourself as weighing 450 pounds in other threads.so,right off the bat I know you havent seen a womans naked body let alone your own feet in quite some time, so lets not do this.

women kill bugs in the house because they get freaked out by them in the house.end of story.

perhaps youve met a weird bug serial killing "girlfriend", but taking life is wrong, its just that we reconcile it. the fisher man catches fish by using worms. we are fine with that because we catch fish for food and reconcile the killing as ok. we kill termites because we deem them pests and they damage our houses so we reconcile taking their life etc etc.

despite this...once again.... the actual taking of life is wrong, everyone knows this, hence why despite the different cultures there is a uniformity on murder for no reason thru the ages.

this also adresses your tired away from society on an island scenario.
man at some point had to decide good and bad without a safety net. and somehow it was decided murder was wrong. the only way to xplain this is to realize we have an inner bar of good/bad.

But I know when I squish a bug I should have opened a window and let it out.

I understand what you are saying. My claim is simply that YOU feel that you should have opened the window. Many people do not feel that way. Thus, it's a relative situation.

What is the difference between a dead tree and a live one?

Sap?

I like to think there is an invisible 5D web of energy/life strung throughout the universe, with threads constantly taking life from dying things and threads shooting down giving life to others.

That's nice.

This is because the natural order leans to good, and ourselves being products of the universe realizing itself, we have a duty to follow what's in our make-up, or else feel guilt or learn to bury that guilt with anger, rage, psychosis, etc.

It is debatable that the natural order leans towards good. If you lived in Somolia in the last 2 decades you might think differently.

Fast food is bad because of its inefficiency, dependence on oil, the way it treats living creatures as mere products (not many things enrage me, but the absolute dehumanizing coldness that comes with the way we kill cows and chickens for fast food makes me fume), and its obvious overabundance on fats and salt. I didn't expect you to question why I put it in the 'bad' category. A discussion like this needs some things ot be taken for granted, which you simply cannot do. I don't have time to write a scholarly paper, I thought this would be a brief exchange of ideas.

Here is the issue. You refuse a real debate. And I understand if you want to be done with this topic, as I agree it's not going anywhere else now. But you are damn straight that I do not take things for granted. I ask questions. If you don't have time to discuss things in depth, I suggest you don't bring them up, or bring them up, but expect others to ask serious questions. I am concerned about fast food as well. I really am. I try to eat it almost never at this point (I at one time weighed 440 pounds, and was known to eat quite a bit). But it's a value call. It depends what your worldview is and what your values are in the first place if you want to call fast food bad on the counts you named.

And Timbaland sucks the way a leather belt would suck as a replacement for breakfast. Are we no longer allowed to call a spade a spade without being labelled elitist?

The stuff about fast food and whatnot doesn't upset me much. This type of thinking does though. This is total, 100 percent opinion, and does not have a whole lot to do with "inherent feelings of guilt". You yourself don't like much classical, but some people spend their lives with it. I believe you were suprised when I wrote N.E.R.D. in my list of favorite bands from the 00s. Should I be ashamed? Are N.E.R.D complete garbage to you? If they are, that's fine. You can see it in the forum, that some fans love Luna Park and some think it's boring. You are welcome to be straightfoward about what YOU think about music. That's fine. It is encouraged. But there is nothing inherently bad about Timbaland, nor NSYNC, nor Brittany, or whatnot. I remember when Gaga first came out there was a lot of negative comments. Now it seems she is loved by the PSB community.

If you think Timbaland is bad because he is repetative, does the same thing every song, etc, then I ask: what do you think about much world music? Are you going to say the music of Namibia is sorry because it doesn't meet your standards of songwriting? StevePSB can't even listen to Yes, he was that disappointed. It must suck that bad because for him, it sucked that bad inherently, right? We should all throw out our copies then.

And what about Philip Glass? Is he complete garbage to you? Probably. Yet I enjoy much of what he's done.

ook,you reffered to yourself as weighing 450 pounds in other threads.so,right off the bat I know you havent seen a womans naked body let alone your own feet in quite some time, so lets not do this.

women kill bugs in the house because they get freaked out by them in the house.end of story.

perhaps youve met a weird bug serial killing "girlfriend", but taking life is wrong, its just that we reconcile it. the fisher man catches fish by using worms. we are fine with that because we catch fish for food and reconcile the killing as ok. we kill termites because we deem them pests and they damage our houses so we reconcile taking their life etc etc.

despite this...once again.... the actual taking of life is wrong, everyone knows this, hence why despite the different cultures there is a uniformity on murder for no reason thru the ages.

this also adresses your tired away from society on an island scenario.
man at some point had to decide good and bad without a safety net. and somehow it was decided murder was wrong. the only way to xplain this is to realize we have an inner bar of good/bad.

I refuse to respond to anything you write now and in the future when you make comments like the first paragraph you wrote. Not only an ad hominum attack that does not address the issue at hand, but also incredibly rude. I have lost and gained quite a lot of weight over a decades time. I am 6'5" and I have weighed between 200 even and 440 pounds. I'm at 330 now. I have a girlfriend who I've been with for 5 years. You make the rudest assumptions. Feel free to see a picture of myself and girlfriend here on my ebay about me page: http://members.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... id=mrcrest

Honestly, you need to apologize. Even if I weighed 800 pounds and never kissed a girl at age 60, it would still be the same incredibly rude comment. I struggle with my weight, if you don't all the better for you, it's no fun. But I also excercise every single day, do you? I also eat well and have fruit and vegatables at every meal, do you? If you do, that's great. And I encourage you to keep on with it. But you need to work on your debating skills and treating people nicely.

relax king kong. you made a crack about me not knowing women so I sent an insult back.thats how it works.

and its great your eating fruit an vegetables,but at your weight you must be chasing them down with a bucket of melted butter and bacon bits.

you give as good as you get.this isnt oprah.

FirthofForth wrote: I understand what you are saying. My claim is simply that YOU feel that you should have opened the window. Many people do not feel that way. Thus, it's a relative situation.

It is debatable that the natural order leans towards good. If you lived in Somolia in the last 2 decades you might think differently.

But it's a value call. It depends what your worldview is and what your values are in the first place if you want to call fast food bad on the counts you named.

Again, if you respect those who think fast food or Timbaland is good, not my problem. Did you not read what I wrote? People can't say what they believe anymore. Timbaland sucks. Period. I know how I judge music, and its a lot more sophisticated than most. I don't care how you feel about that. I've been around lots of people and I've noticed their tastes. Better, I used to be like them; I know where they're coming from. What, do you have to be Albert Einstein before people start actually listening to your opinions? Again, Bill Hicks: 'Well who are you to judge, what makes you so smart?' 'I'm me, it's true, shut the f*** up.'

I'm not saying people aren't allowed to wallow in mediocrity, but don't expect me to be silent about it. Does everything have to be physical before we're allowed to be concrete? Bathing in excrement is a bad idea because its smelly and can cause disease. But if you watch someone do that, are you thinking to yourself: 'my, that person is doing what feels good for them, so good for them.' You're probably thinking: 'psycho. Hope they stay away from me.'

Many actions can be defined as coming from ignorance. You think that's fine. Its a value call. Right? Everybody has different values. If they want to be ignorant, that can't be considered worse than someone who thinks. But bad consequences come from ignorance, and that affects me, therefore I argue against it. But I'm not allowed to say they're wrong, am I? That would be overstepping my bounds. Best to be wishy-washy and weak. 'You're allowed to destroy radio and tv, my dear masses of dolts. Please globalize the world as well, or at least let the rich scumbags do it. Yeah, frequent McDonalds please, the more cows killed the better. Its your prerogative to do what you want by ignoring any moral or ethical code that may be screaming to be heard inside you right now.' You're right Firth of Forth, there is no such thing as progress and we have no idea what good or bad is. Because some people like being serfs and slaves, right?

And Somalia is external influencing the internal. People, left to their own devices, are good. Scarcity and the monetary system keep people greedy and selfish, and they'd have us believe that's natural. Its not, we do good things and feel good. If we do bad, like I said people feel guilt or learn to bury that guilt. Its naturally easier, like a smile is than a frown. But I'm done, because I refuse to have a real debate

relax king kong. you made a crack about me not knowing women so I sent an insult back.thats how it works.

and its great your eating fruit an vegetables,but at your weight you must be chasing them down with a bucket of melted butter and bacon bits.

you give as good as you get.this isnt oprah.

I hope you get kicked from the forum. I did not in any way make a crack about you not knowing women, I imply that you are stereotyping all women though, which of course you are.

But how ignorant can you get? Extremely apparently. How can we have a discussion about anything when you say things such as at my weight I'm chasing them down with a bucket of melted butter? Umm, perhaps I have gone down from 440 to 330? Perhaps I lost that weight over a couple year period? If you actually read the thread I made about Running you would know that. But since you feel the need to call me outright names such as King Kong, in opposition to forum rules, I am reporting your posts and I am putting you on my ignore list so I don't hve to see such nonesense.

Again, if you respect those who think fast food or Timbaland is good, not my problem. Did you not read what I wrote? People can't say what they believe anymore. Timbaland sucks. Period. I know how I judge music, and its a lot more sophisticated than most. I don't care how you feel about that. I've been around lots of people and I've noticed their tastes.

Timbaland sucks period? Does he? And how do you draw that line? I love Sexyback, and some of the songs on the 2007 Duran Duran album. What does that make me? I also love This Must Be The Place and King's Cross.

The thing is, if you want to argue why fast food is bad, like I said, that doesn't upset me much. You put forth some legitimate concerns. At a deep level, it's subjective, but you are listing real things. With the music situation though, you claim "I know how I judge music, and its a lot more sophisticated than most". You might spend a lot more time on it, yes. But many classical people would claim that they are much more sophisticated than you. Who is right? You or them? You would both be making the same claim. And alas, when it comes to pure asetheics, such as music criticism, there really is hardly any right or wrong. Perhaps Neil Tennant sucks because he can't sing? If he went on American Idol what would happen? He wouldn't even make it through. It depends what you are looking for in music. If you want depth, then yes, there is a lot of depth in PSB. But you know, I still like ERasure. Not in the same way as PSB, but Chains of Love is still a nice song. But there is no depth at all. Am I to be excoriated for that? Some on the forum think so. Yet a song like Heart does not have that much depth either. You think the best PSB output is from the 00s if I remember right. I totally disagree. So? Who is more sophisticated?

What do I get out of PSB? Well, I like first and foremost the underlying synth strings on most tracks. When they largely left that off the finished version of Viva La Vida, I was disappointed. Now what does that have to do with Keisha versus Bach? Not much, it's just a preference. But you would have to admit I'm not some "idiot kid" who only listens to Timbaland and the like right? The world is more complex then this easy division between crap and not crap that you make.

FirthofForth wrote:

relax king kong. you made a crack about me not knowing women so I sent an insult back.thats how it works.

and its great your eating fruit an vegetables,but at your weight you must be chasing them down with a bucket of melted butter and bacon bits.

you give as good as you get.this isnt oprah.

I hope you get kicked from the forum. .

and I hope you get kicked from outback steakhouse.
you're just performing shtick here anyways.