The First Islam Country of Europe?

[whateverman42]

I'm familiar with the Popular Mechanics article, which doesn't explain many things. It also doesn't have as much evidence as they'd like us to believe. Its a lot of opinion stated as fact, which should be expected from the mainstream media. I particularly like how Michelle Malkin is on your side, she has a particularly nice quote in the link provided. Its government propaganda.

How would a Boeing make a hole of that size in the Pentagon? And the windows on each side of the hole are intact, so wouldn't the wings have smashed through them and the walls? Just like happened on the WTC's? And why is there not one video that has been made public showing a plane smashing into it? All they have to do is release one of the many videos they are holding and they'd have proof it was planes. So why not? National security? Nope, it was a missile. Or again, the countless eyewitnesses, including firefighters and police, who felt explosions before each plane hit.

Have you seen September Clues? Its not as popular as Loose Change, but focuses on the television coverage of 9/11. It is factual evidence of video tampering. I've read a lot of the debunking myths propaganda out there, I urge you to check out September Clues if you're going to have an opinion.

Glen, if you immediately dismiss an idea as stupid you've lost the battle. Never underestimate what will be done for opwer and money. I don't pretend to know the elites plans, but they are insanely clever. They have unlimited money and resources, so I don’t put any scenario past them. By blaming Iraq it was obviously going to backfire, and people would surmise Bush did it for oil. Its possible they lied about a lie, which covers up the big lie. Anyways, they have gained too much from 9/11 and there are too many unanswered questions for me to believe the official story.

[Your Funny Uncle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

[Deschanel]

I'm not religious, fairly agnostic. I have divided sympathies: I support atheists and their freedom from religoius tampering in their (anyone's) lives. But I also think of the comfort my old cop Dad takes in "JC". We're not very good Catholics, don't go to church anymore. Dad dislikes "holy-rollers". But at heart he believes, a sort of jocular friendship with Christ that has seen him through two heart surgeries, and the good fortune he's had in his life, and his blessings. He's not afraid to die, he really does believe in his Christianity and an afterlife.

Who the hell am I to dissuade him of this? I envy him the comfort he takes in his beliefs.

Has anyone here ever taken LSD? A funny question, I know. One sensation you get, out in nature, is an interconnectedness, the grass and trees and flowers and yourself as being part of some mysterious whole. Hard to explain. You don't need LSD to see the beauty and intricacy of nature, it is often breathtaking. And i'm a firm believer in evolution, no "intelligent design" malarkey here. But while it might not be some bearded man on a throne, seeing and feeling the beauty of the natural world, in some moments, makes you wonder if there's a purpose, a meaning, a soul to the natural world of which we humans are a part of. The intricacy and art of a spider-web in sunlight, the immense beauty of shape-shifting clouds at the beach, the bursting of life in summertime.. it's an amazing world if you're in the mood to stop and see it. And wondering what it all means is probably the origin of religion. The human abuses of which do not negate the real wonder and supernatural beauty of the natural world.

Call it God, or Gaia, or the Roman pantheon of gods.. maybe there is a shape, meaning , and purpose to our lives, a mystery that reveals itself through nature's immense beauty. We'll never know really. I find stern atheism hard to sign up for, they seem to know it all, and are quick to judge others who believe in something beyond this brief material life, something bigger than themselves. I cannot stand religious zealots of any stripe myself, but there's a very human impulse underneath all the garbage piled on it by organized religion. I find strict triumphal atheism negative, smug, and depressing, quick to mock any spiritual feeling whatsoever. How grey and grim, I find it sad that life's big questions they seem to think answered. It's saying no to mystery, ambiguity, wonder, questioning. Yet gives no answers to the existential questions. Re-heated complaints about organized religion, bitching about that basically.

I just don't know. And i'm humble enough to say that, unlike militant atheists who clearly think they do know. And can't wait to tell you the bad news, smugly. I think "religious", or spiritual feeling is not far removed from artistic feeling.
You either have it or you don't.

[Danny C]

I just don't know. And i'm humble enough to say that, unlike militant atheists who clearly think they do know.

I wonder, would you call a Christian who firmly believes that there is a God, an afterlife and all that, a militant? I very much doubt it.

Yet you're happy to give that label to atheists who firmly believe that there is no God and no afterlife.

Double standard, perhaps?

And you know, when an atheist tells you there's no God, that's not an arrogant guess - it's the logical and rational result of tens of thousands of years of searching for a deity, and of not even the faintest shred of evidence for a deity being discovered.

Would you call people who told you that leprechauns and unicorns were myths "militants"? Of course not. Yet people who'll unapologetically tell you that sky fairies like Jehovah, Allah, Zeus and Odin are myths are militants? Pick the bones out of that one!

Fantastical claims, such as the claim that there is a superbeing watching over us, judging our every move, deciding whether we're naughty or nice, occasionally granting our wishes, healing the sick etc, require fantastical evidence. It is most certainly not "militant" to deduce from the utter lack of evidence that there is no God - in fact, it is sensible, rational and 100% in tune with the FACTS.

And if you get pissy about people revealing facts and truths to you, then that is YOUR problem and not theirs.

[Drico One]

Let's face it, there is no god. The evidence just isn't there to support the notion that there is. If people want to believe in a god, that's up to them. I respect that belief, faith, or irrational hope - whatever people want to call it. If people get some sort of comfort or path in life out of it, good for them. Just please don't force your beliefs down my throat or attempt to hijack the legislature of my country and impede my freedoms by inflicting laws on me that are based on your personal belief system.

You feel free to believe. I'll feel free not to. We'll all get along famously.

Drico.

PS Just because some of us prefer to live and let live, don't confuse this with the headbanger's notion that this means that science and religion can be equated. They can't for obvious reasons. One is based on research and empirical evidence - the other is based on, well, whatever you want to base it on really. So, anybody selling that line needs to reel it back in. At best, it's an intellectually bankrupt position. At worst, it's propaganda that seeks legitimacy by equalising a belief in something that there is no evidence for with a non-belief in something that there is no evidence for. It's a deceptive sleight of hand, but it's deceptive nonetheless.

PPS Only I can write a PS that has a greater word-count than my main message.

[Your Funny Uncle]

I find strict triumphal atheism negative, smug, and depressing, quick to mock any spiritual feeling whatsoever. How grey and grim, I find it sad that life's big questions they seem to think answered. It's saying no to mystery, ambiguity, wonder, questioning. Yet gives no answers to the existential questions. Re-heated complaints about organized religion, bitching about that basically.

I hear this kind of criticism very often, and it just doesn't ring true to me. Questioning the nature of existance is surely at the heart of scientific endeavour. The desire to know, to understand, to find out is at the core of what it is to be human. The universe is a place of intense awe and wonder, and there's no better feeling for me than being in front of a spectacular natural wonder like the Grand Canyon or Mont Blanc. On a smaller scale, there's a spot by the river in Durham where I'd go to sit on a bench, surrounded by trees and the river, and away from the bustle of the City. It made me feel relaxed and at one with the world. I just didn't feel the need to go any further and start inventing fairy stories based on no evidence.

What we know now is that we are connected to all life on earth. All living creatures from microbes to oak trees to humans are based on cells, which use the same mechanisms to reproduce. Look at how scientists have used firefly genes to make plants glow. Everything is interconnected. At a deeper level we are all made of atoms which are formed at the heart of stars, and which make up everything else that we know of. As I said earlier in this thread, there are a hundred billion stars in this galaxy, and over a hundred billion galaxies in the known universe. Imagine what could be out there in those immeasurably huge expanses. There is so much more to explore, so much more to know. There's mystery, ambiguity and questioning aplenty in the universe that I see, without the need to invent god.

Of course no-one truly knows what happens when we die for sure. It could be that there is some kind of afterlife but there is just no verifiable evidence for it. The same holds true for the existance of god. There is no harm in speculating on these things but to form some kind of belief and dogma when there is no proof... It just makes no sense to my mind.

[markus]

Nicely put Deschanel.

I'd like write something about atheism too, why it's IMO basically as evil as the most horrendous religion imaginable.

Recently a co-worker of mine commited suicide. He claimed to be a satanist and "antichrist", not that he really believed in satan or god, but just the philosophy of it. He lived his life letting lust take him wherever it wanted, following his genitals like a humble slave, going from one fun happening to the other. Talking with him you'd notice he was like a teenager inside even though he was 40+. His topics were constantly evolving around his latest sexcapades, telling kinky jokes. People around him sort of liked him but were also annoyed at his self-centered attitude. Everything was constantly about him. He wasn't young at heart, he was just childish. And sadly, his defence mechanisms were on the same level.

His mother died from illness, and shortly thereafter his 20 year old daughter commited suicide. It was a complete kiss of death for him. Suddenly the party was over. He dissapeared somewhere, later i learned he was in psychiatric ward for a few months. But he never recovered. The meds didn't work, and no therapy or treatment could bring back his will to live. A year after the tragic events he ended his own life.

I can't of course say there was anything that could have saved him from his death road. But knowing him, with his religion-phobia, I can imagine he never even considered the option of sending a little SOS trough that mechanism we all people have. Scientists have even discovered there's a certain part/area in the brain that people use for religious experiences/prayer. What the heck is it doing there if it's not meant to be used?? Well that is what atheism tells a person. "Don't you dare sink that low and attempt such a thing, you'll become like those dumb religious people with their delusions, you'd be weak! a loser! you're better off DEAD!" That's what he had probably convinced himself of, or was taught to believe.

I know all people are individuals, he just represents a certain type of personality, not atheism personified. His biggest problem was probably his ego. New born children are the biggest ego-manics in the world. Some people never leave that state at all before they become old, get alzheimers and are like children all over again. I didn't know him 100% but still, the type exists, everyone probably knows someone like that. I've seen people like that change and start to grow as humans, when following the path I'm currently on, so I know there are alternatives. But he would have probably rejected the idea. Now I'm sorry I didn't try, but who knew he was so close to death...

Narrow mindness, and fear of the unknown, what can't be immediatly explained, that's what atheism stands for to me. There's nothing rational about shutting down and denying human abilities, and only focus on things that can be seen right here right now. There's no wisdom in atheism, it isn't HELPING ANYONE WITH ANYTHING! It's just switching darkness if form of bad religion to another dark place. End of speech.

[Drico One]

I'm trying to read what Markus has written, but somehow it doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever. Can somebody translate?

Drico.

[Your Funny Uncle]

I'm trying to read what Markus has written, but somehow it doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever. Can somebody translate?

I think he tried to justify his opinion of atheism based on his experience of one unstable person who happened to be an atheist, before admitting that it probably wasn't actually atheism that caused the behaviour he saw, and then going on to conclude that he was right anyway...

[Drico One]

I'm trying to read what Markus has written, but somehow it doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever. Can somebody translate?

I think he tried to justify his opinion of atheism based on his experience of one unstable person who happened to be an atheist, before admitting that it probably wasn't actually atheism that caused the behaviour he saw, and then going on to conclude that he was right anyway...

Thank you, Dr. Dolittle.

As George Bernard Shaw famously said, "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality."

Drico.

[markus]

Your reactions reveal i hit a soft spot. The need to start mocking, the constant bitterness and agession, it's based on fear and insecurity. Simple basic psychology...

[Your Funny Uncle]

Your reactions reveal i hit a soft spot. The need to start mocking, the constant bitterness and agession, it's based on fear and insecurity. Simple basic psychology...

There'd be nothing to mock if you posted something that made coherent sense. I think we've explained enough now how atheism is the very opposite of closed mindedness. Do we really need to repeat ourselves?

[markus]

Your reactions reveal i hit a soft spot. The need to start mocking, the constant bitterness and agession, it's based on fear and insecurity. Simple basic psychology...

There'd be nothing to mock if you posted something that made coherent sense. I think we've explained enough now how atheism is the very opposite of closed mindedness. Do we really need to repeat ourselves?

Apparently I do...Atheism prevented my "friend" from considering any other options before ending his own life. You get it now?

[Your Funny Uncle]

.Atheism prevented my "friend" from considering any other options before ending his own life. You get it now?

Yes I've heard you repeat and repeat the same point but it's illogical. Atheism doesn't prevent one from considering anything. It takes consideration of the alternatives to arrive at the point of being an atheist. Plenty of religious people have killed themselves when under similar emotional pressures. It just makes no sense to blame atheism here.

You're assuming that "finding god." would've helped this guy to find a way out of his depression, and maybe it would have, but so might finding some other focus for his energies like raising money for charities that help suicidal people or people that suffer from his mother's illness. You can't know because you're not inside the guy's head.

[markus]

.Atheism prevented my "friend" from considering any other options before ending his own life. You get it now?

Yes I've heard you repeat and repeat the same point but it's illogical. Atheism doesn't prevent one from considering anything. It takes consideration of the alternatives to arrive at the point of being an atheist. Plenty of religious people have killed themselves when under similar emotional pressures. It just makes no sense to blame atheism here.

You're assuming that "finding god." would've helped this guy to find a way out of his depression, and maybe it would have, but so might finding some other focus for his energies like raising money for charities that help suicidal people or people that suffer from his mother's illness. You can't know because you're not inside the guy's head.

Right, but you know as well as I that the situation I described could occur, and probably has many times. When being absolutely convinced we are alone in the universe, nobody cares, no point in living when bad things happen...each person have their own limits, tolerance levels for the stress i creates. That's the core reason why people are in rehabs, or psychiatric wards after suicide attempts. Trust me, I've worked in such places, I know. I've listened to what they're saying. We humans aren't meant to live this way, everybody's dreaming of paradise deep inside, young people plan to live forever, and then people get midlife crises when everything they planned to do wont happen, because the clock is ticking. The claim that nobody has found any evidence for gods existence is highly subjective. You just dismiss all the claims from people who say they have. What's preventing a person from getting to that "place" is simply the lack of humility. It's a trap and a cage that people are inside. There's no evolution for a person inside that, and no hope for eternal life. It's simply put plain STUPID!