Pet Shop Boys Community

Harry wrote: Tue 01 Aug 2023, 11:54 am

Oznerol wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2023, 9:06 pm
There is a huge misundertanding among people who believe that all the music videos of the 80's ever existed in some kind of HD masters. Even IF some of them were ever recorded on film (a thing that was not very common. because it was more expensive) 99% of them were EDITED on SD video, so that means that final HD masters of the videos never existed, and never will

My point isn't really about the existence/lack of HD masters though.

I'm sure you're right about music videos being edited on SD video, but my issue with the SMASH Blu-ray is how badly these SD videos are presented, and how clumsy it is to pass SD content through an upscaling process in the way that they have. I don't expect "So hard" and "Domino dancing" to look like "Always on my mind". But, it is very possible, with a limited budget, to do much better.

An example is the Doctor Who Collection Blu-rays, which have been coming out at a rate of three seasons a year since 2018, presenting archive seasons of the show where each episode is a mix of studio shot on video and location shot on film, as was usually the case with British TV until the 1990s. The quality of the remastering, done by a guy called Peter Crocker, is superlative. In many cases the film elements are long gone and all that exist are SD broadcast masters, telerecordings, and various other badly archived sources. They present the episodes in the best possible quality using the full potential of the Blu-ray format, and do not try to falsely "upscale" them to something they have never been. They look as good as if you were watching a brand new broadcast master.

I do think the issue with SMASH is a Parlophone problem. Look at what they have done to "upscale" David Bowie's appearance on the Old Grey Whistle Test, which was shot on video in a TV studio (like Doctor Who) and used to look perfectly good, now it looks like badly rendered CGI: https://youtu.be/IBgU0tiLy2s

It is interesting that Discovery was presented in SD on DVD. Perhaps Parlophone had a go at upscaling it and the results were awful. Somebody looked at the picture quality so I am surprised that they have released SMASH as it is. It's a real shame.

If anyone is still not sure what those of use banging on about bad upscaling mean, have a look at the bridge and the buildings in "So hard" at 00:29: https://youtu.be/6iv8LXZeNTE

Oznerol wrote: Sun 06 Aug 2023, 4:33 am

Harry wrote: Tue 01 Aug 2023, 11:54 am

Oznerol wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2023, 9:06 pm
There is a huge misundertanding among people who believe that all the music videos of the 80's ever existed in some kind of HD masters. Even IF some of them were ever recorded on film (a thing that was not very common. because it was more expensive) 99% of them were EDITED on SD video, so that means that final HD masters of the videos never existed, and never will

My point isn't really about the existence/lack of HD masters though.

I'm sure you're right about music videos being edited on SD video, but my issue with the SMASH Blu-ray is how badly these SD videos are presented, and how clumsy it is to pass SD content through an upscaling process in the way that they have. I don't expect "So hard" and "Domino dancing" to look like "Always on my mind". But, it is very possible, with a limited budget, to do much better.

An example is the Doctor Who Collection Blu-rays, which have been coming out at a rate of three seasons a year since 2018, presenting archive seasons of the show where each episode is a mix of studio shot on video and location shot on film, as was usually the case with British TV until the 1990s. The quality of the remastering, done by a guy called Peter Crocker, is superlative. In many cases the film elements are long gone and all that exist are SD broadcast masters, telerecordings, and various other badly archived sources. They present the episodes in the best possible quality using the full potential of the Blu-ray format, and do not try to falsely "upscale" them to something they have never been. They look as good as if you were watching a brand new broadcast master.

I do think the issue with SMASH is a Parlophone problem. Look at what they have done to "upscale" David Bowie's appearance on the Old Grey Whistle Test, which was shot on video in a TV studio (like Doctor Who) and used to look perfectly good, now it looks like badly rendered CGI: https://youtu.be/IBgU0tiLy2s

It is interesting that Discovery was presented in SD on DVD. Perhaps Parlophone had a go at upscaling it and the results were awful. Somebody looked at the picture quality so I am surprised that they have released SMASH as it is. It's a real shame.

If anyone is still not sure what those of use banging on about bad upscaling mean, have a look at the bridge and the buildings in "So hard" at 00:29: https://youtu.be/6iv8LXZeNTE

You are right on that. There are some examples of original SD stuff tranfered to HD with impressive results, like all the Top Of The Pops presentations recently aired again...really impressive..but I think it all depends really on the quality of that original SD footage. It seems that masters of this quality are not available for everything, sadly...it´s not "all" in the hnads of the person who make the job..altough, in bad hands, you can destroy the quality. I agree that the job done on some PSB videos is terrible.. For many videos, my PopArt DVD looks better in the same TV, than the Smash versions...

DopeFiend wrote: Thu 10 Aug 2023, 6:24 pmIt's really quite simple, it comes down to whether the mastering process includes restoring the original film used in the original creation. If they obtain the raw film, be it digital or analogue, they can ensure there's no degradation between it being edited down to the final product.

I sincerely, sincerely doubt the 80's music videos (and other decades) weren't filmed on a material that can be restored into HD. Who says it's impossible? I've never heard of this. Feel free to educate me.

All I know is, other artists put in the effort to remaster their videos.
https://youtu.be/LT3cERVRoQo
https://youtu.be/iUrzicaiRLU
https://youtu.be/sOnqjkJTMaA?t=503

Old Soak wrote: Fri 11 Aug 2023, 11:23 amThanks for confirming that Smash has no value to fans who already own all this stuff multiple times, not even the much mooted video 'upgrades'.

NotInvisible wrote: Fri 11 Aug 2023, 5:19 pm

Old Soak wrote: Fri 11 Aug 2023, 11:23 amThanks for confirming that Smash has no value to fans who already own all this stuff multiple times, not even the much mooted video 'upgrades'.

The audio remastering is fantastic - the songs have never sounded better.

Old Soak wrote: Fri 11 Aug 2023, 6:23 pmDepends on the quality of your system and how old you are - hearing gets worse with age. If all you listen to is streaming via headphones or mp3 quality you aren't getting anything.

DopeFiend wrote: Thu 10 Aug 2023, 6:24 pm It's really quite simple, it comes down to whether the mastering process includes restoring the original film used in the original creation. If they obtain the raw film, be it digital or analogue, they can ensure there's no degradation between it being edited down to the final product.
With all of the Smash videos, it's plain to see they didn't actually dig up the original film reels and re-edit the videos back together. They must have only post-processed the already heavily compressed and degraded videos. Although a couple videos such as Together are slightly more clear than the Youtube counterpart, it's no 4k full on restoration.

I sincerely, sincerely doubt the 80's music videos (and other decades) weren't filmed on a material that can be restored into HD. Who says it's impossible? I've never heard of this. Feel free to educate me.
All I know is, other artists put in the effort to remaster their videos.
https://youtu.be/LT3cERVRoQo
https://youtu.be/iUrzicaiRLU
https://youtu.be/sOnqjkJTMaA?t=503

I refuse to believe Bilingual wasn't filmed in a higher resolution.
They've clearly cut corners when it came to "upgrading" the music videos for this release.
I remember Neil saying how Miracles had a very expensive budget. It's a shame the release for it is so grainy and down-sampled.

Oznerol wrote: Fri 18 Aug 2023, 12:26 am

DopeFiend wrote: Thu 10 Aug 2023, 6:24 pm It's really quite simple, it comes down to whether the mastering process includes restoring the original film used in the original creation. If they obtain the raw film, be it digital or analogue, they can ensure there's no degradation between it being edited down to the final product.
With all of the Smash videos, it's plain to see they didn't actually dig up the original film reels and re-edit the videos back together. They must have only post-processed the already heavily compressed and degraded videos. Although a couple videos such as Together are slightly more clear than the Youtube counterpart, it's no 4k full on restoration.

I sincerely, sincerely doubt the 80's music videos (and other decades) weren't filmed on a material that can be restored into HD. Who says it's impossible? I've never heard of this. Feel free to educate me.
All I know is, other artists put in the effort to remaster their videos.
https://youtu.be/LT3cERVRoQo
https://youtu.be/iUrzicaiRLU
https://youtu.be/sOnqjkJTMaA?t=503

I refuse to believe Bilingual wasn't filmed in a higher resolution.
They've clearly cut corners when it came to "upgrading" the music videos for this release.
I remember Neil saying how Miracles had a very expensive budget. It's a shame the release for it is so grainy and down-sampled.

(even the basic edit of "Always On My Mind" included on Smash, re-cretared with HD images taken from the recent remaster of the film..is not identical to the original...)

rehmana wrote: Thu 24 Aug 2023, 6:32 am Yes it works out almost double the UK Amazon price (due to postage charges) but I am one of those "completists". Would really bug me in a year or two if I didn't have it.

rehmana wrote: Thu 24 Aug 2023, 6:32 am I wasn't going to buy this due to reasons stated by others - main reason being nothing new so why bother. But then I saw the japanese release of the 3cd 2br comes with a lyric booklet and a signed photo or card. Yes it works out almost double the UK Amazon price (due to postage charges) but I am one of those "completists". Would really bug me in a year or two if I didn't have it. So I figured why not get the one with something extra? Hoping it arrives in a few days.
Although Amazon UK droped the price again for this set. Currently at just under £42 gbp so may have made a mistake buying the Japanese one after all.
Oh well ...