Pet Shop Boys Community

Demographics that I have seen have been confirmed by my questioning of Americans that a large minority of Americans don't know when Columbus discovered America. Some think it might have happened as late as after 1850. Now, though history is an area I enjoy, and I realize if you don't like a subject that you forget most of it, there seems to me no good excuse not to know such a basic fact as: In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Without having a decent chronology of events, citizens can't really understand our history, and if you don't really understand our history, you probably should stay out of the voting booths. Participatory democracy has problems..but I guess that's why we still have the electoral college. I think if people knew that in many elections (Jefferon, Hayes, Bush, etc) that the popular vote did not make the president that there would be outrage, but I think the majority don't even understand that. People I talk to also don't know such things as 1776 was the year America was founded. This is absurd, and it makes me angry at America's anti-intellectualism. People consistently report they JUST DONT CARE. If you just don't care please stay far away from town hall meetings please!!!!!

I think I beat you up in highschool.

I think I beat you up in highschool.

I get attacked for this post? Why? Because I know 1492? I'm not talking about what was John Withrop's business in England before coming to Mass. Bay or why Lincoln fired a certain general or what year Wilson was totally incapacitated in the white house. This is BASIC CULTURAL LITERACY. I expect better out of Pet Shop Boys fans then person attacks.

I really have to remember to add smileys.

out of a zillion topics you could have created you decided on one to vent fellow americans apparently are buffoons for no other reason I can see other than some weird need to pander to a multi ethnic forum.

what is the correct response you want? should a american forum member say...yes,I agree we really are stupid, or from a european forum member.. why yes its all true, americans are stupid.

all countrys have ignorant types and types that are smart. they also have some that have a need to feel superior and boast about what they know, and how the other ones arent as smart.
what do you want? go get yourself on who wants to be a millionaire.

Good lord. There is no correct response of course. If you think that that basic cultural literacy is not necessary, then say so and say why. This topic has nothing, nothing, nothing, NOTHING!!!!!! to do with pandering. I actually needed to vent, because I actually feel like I hate Americans who just say..." I don't know and I don't care" to basic cultural literacy that 99.9 percent of us should have. I don't need to feel superior, as I actually in no way do. I do read alot, and study philosophy, psych, socio, history, fine arts, math, etc...BUT, there are a lot, tons of people out there who know so much more in most subjects than I do. I just thought it was taken for granted that all graduates of high school in America know things like: Columbus was 1492, Mark Twain wrote books, what a coeffecient is, the parts of an atom, etc. Basic stuff, not millionaire stuff. I couldnt do millionaire because I don't know movies well enough, nor sports. Neither of those things is taught in school. I would like it if schools taught subjects such as religion and free will vs determinism, but we really cant do that when our students arent getting the education they need. I believe by multi-ethnic that you mean multi national. But the same can apply to Britain if the graduates dont know who Elizabeth I was, or when WWII happened, and who fought in it.

Firth, please don't think that Glenn is in any way representative for the people at this forum. If anything, getting a reaction like this from him is a sign that you must be on to something.

Glenn accuses everyone who isn't a card-carrying, Cheney-loving Republican of being anti-American liberals (or even worse, socialists), and concludes that we are brainwashed by propagandistic left-wing media like NBC if we dare to speak critically of, say, Iraq, Guantanamo or the current US healthcare system.

The reality, of course, is that the United States - for all its fantastic achievements - is now facing a challenge from other countries which means that there is no longer time to rest on the laurels. Eight years under Glenn's preferred government have not exactly improved things, and now is the time to really make a change - which also includes the general level of knowledge, as you are pointing out.

Unfortunately, one has only to watch a random evening of Fox News to conclude that it will be a tough journey for at least some of the Americans.

May I recommend a book like Fareed Zakaria's 'The Post-American world' which deals with some of these issues.

Oh dear , what is that acronym. Oh yes .... L.M.A.O.

Glenn's views are horribly fascinating to the rest of us.

That America is full of people who believe Saddam's WMOD are buried in the desert
or that Israel bought vacant land from the Palestinians and now they want it back,
is at the same time scary, yet fascinating.

To his credit, Glenn does try to be a bit open minded and he is a great PSB fan.
It would be boring without him.

thanks greg I can always count on you to be a voice of niceness regardless if I think your views smell like ca-ca.

anyways, maybe I'm jaded after a few too many years reading endless posts and arguing in forums that maybe I've become a tad too sensitive, but you get a sixth sense after awhile when someone is pointlessly recycling a stereotype.

I've heard it said that a large amount of brits have bad teeth. yet even if a brit started a post about that I'm sure I would be thinking, come on,whats the real point of the post. a actual concern about teeth or a deeper statement. anyways my bad if I over stepped.standing down.

I understand you think that this is a stereotype. I'm not one to usually fall for such things. For instance, I recognize that there isn't even such things as "race" but only ethnicities. But this "stereotype" shows up again and again, in all ages, all races, all types of professions. Americans really do seem to lack a basic cultural literacy. You could make the argument that the literacy changes. That James Fenmore Cooper or Richard Wright aren't known like they used to be. But when it comes down to simple facts. Facts that if you don't have you can't understand the rest of the world and make informed decisions, that makes me concerned. I know, very very well, that not all Americans suffer from a lack of cultural literacy. This is why I write a large MINORITY, not majority. My "deeper" statement is just, Americans, in large part, seem to take their country for granted, not learn about other places, and it shows. Many people have an "I don't care" attitude. Now, just to really piss you off: If I were to present very real arguments to any American, or any other person about why no one can know God, people will just say "There just is". The argument is, the bible is literature that must be interpreted through the human filter just like any other book. Which means, with the bible as our guide, every individual person knows a different God. If your claim is there is one and only one God, ok, but the bible doesn't help you know that. The Calvinists read in it that we are determined, the Later Day Saints that heaven closed in the 1930's, some think Jesus is God, some think he is not. The Bible says both. And yet 85+ percent of Americans just believe. Many believe the bible must be taken literally. To that I can only answer...they have not read the bible. And in fact, that is largely true. And I can only imagine that God doesn't like that very much.

^Well, some Christians do take the bible as the the word of God...I have a friend who is evangelical and she completely takes the bible literally...yet she reads it all the time. There are different types of christian and I dont think it's fair to say that ones who take it literally havent read it?
It all comes down to a matter of opinion. People will interpret the bible in their own way...

Firth, I sympathize. Columbus and 1492 is really the least of it. It's the credulous belief in some truly outrageous lies and misinformation about what's going on NOW that I find appalling. That Murdoch channel and the right-wing sites on the Internet pump out the lies and distortions, and even "mainstream" media have to waste countless hours on nonsense. It's sort of a disgrace. Yet people believe it.

Now you know why Republicans absolutely hate the idea of education, or funding for same, why they love to tamper with it and disrespect it- like pulling their kids out of school so as not to hear Obama give a speech on the importance of education, working hard, studying, getting good grades and staying in school. All these accusations- "Marxist indoctrination!"- are taken seriously by our media, let's have a "debate'! about it.

No, there's no debate. They are crackpot loons, and it's dismal they get the time of day on CNN etc. Lunacy. But ultimately the Republican assault on education has paid off since Reagan. We now have a generation who can't read or write, and believe what FOX and the like tells them. They don't need no liberal elitist things like fancy book-learnin'!

Keep them poor, keep them stupid, keep them pissed off at "liberals"- your modern GOP.
Dismal, and the country's never been more divided since the Civil War. But take heart, there's plenty of smart people out there too. They just don't get the attention and airtime from cable news that mouth-breathing fools with conspiracy theories get. It's not as entertaining. But I must say the current young generation coming up in the US seems smart and compassionate to me for the largest part, and there really is hope. Don't despair that the culture seems to focus on the fools. It's not an accurate picture.

I dont think it's fair to say that ones who take it literally havent read it?

This is true. What I meant was, they may have read it, but they didn't understand it. If the bible is literal, and you sin with your hand, it ought to be no longer there et al.

Deschanel - I agree with everything you've written. I think a major problem is not just FOX news, but every channel on TV with few exceptions. TV is watched by Americans for hours and hours and hours. It's the normative social conditioner. And the programs are just total junk. Big Brother for an hour a week, ok. But when you just sit and veg in front of that stuff, it takes away from family, your own creative activities, reading books, being outdoors, and learning what is really true in society on your own. The news networks, including MSNBC, are a waste of time. I read the economist. If I didn't, I wouldn't be able to keep up on Italy, Zambia, and Argentina. It's not surprising that misinformation could get around. When you consider that something like the Palestine issue isn't usually taught in schools at all, and the news only reports when serious things are happening, and doesn't explain what, say, the Kennesit is, or why exactly Iran hates Isreal, then we are wide open for misformed opinions on all topics, not just that one.

Deschanel wrote:Firth, I sympathize. Columbus and 1492 is really the least of it. It's the credulous belief in some truly outrageous lies and misinformation about what's going on NOW that I find appalling. That Murdoch channel and the right-wing sites on the Internet pump out the lies and distortions, and even "mainstream" media have to waste countless hours on nonsense. It's sort of a disgrace. Yet people believe it.

Now you know why Republicans absolutely hate the idea of education, or funding for same, why they love to tamper with it and disrespect it- like pulling their kids out of school so as not to hear Obama give a speech on the importance of education, working hard, studying, getting good grades and staying in school. All these accusations- "Marxist indoctrination!"- are taken seriously by our media, let's have a "debate'! about it.

No, there's no debate. They are crackpot loons, and it's dismal they get the time of day on CNN etc. Lunacy. But ultimately the Republican assault on education has paid off since Reagan. We now have a generation who can't read or write, and believe what FOX and the like tells them. They don't need no liberal elitist things like fancy book-learnin'!

Keep them poor, keep them stupid, keep them pissed off at "liberals"- your modern GOP.
Dismal, and the country's never been more divided since the Civil War. But take heart, there's plenty of smart people out there too. They just don't get the attention and airtime from cable news that mouth-breathing fools with conspiracy theories get. It's not as entertaining. But I must say the current young generation coming up in the US seems smart and compassionate to me for the largest part, and there really is hope. Don't despair that the culture seems to focus on the fools. It's not an accurate picture.

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There are a handful of news agencies feeding the news media, all of whom are right wing and promote a mercantile capitalist/ de regulated neo liberal hegemony. Those critical views that are aired are denigrated to the point of making them seem 'un-natural' illogical and absurd. Take Obama's attempts to reform healthcare in America, for example, the coverage of it is completely one sided. Why is this? because the same types of people who own the news media own the big health insurance and pharmaceutical companies. It saddens me to see working class americans voting with their feet claiming that they are middle class - no one want s to be working class in America, it seems it's akin to having a disease - and actively taking to the streets to renounce any reforms which will benefit them in the long run. By continually covering their dissent (coincedentally the side that big business takes) the news media appears to give the impression that the views of the 'common man' or middle America are what dictates healthcare provision and not big business. The irony of all of this course is that given the realtively small number of news agencies, media outlets, pharmeceuticals etc etc capitalism as practiced over the past thirty years under the theories of Hayek, Friedman, Fukuyama and the rest of them is not a system that would be recognised by Adam Smith who advocated perfect competiton not oligopolies.

What was the purpose of the original post? To vent that Americans are stupid? I think its pretty obvious the vast majority of the human population are still relatively oblivious. A small example is the fact that PSB are not appreciated on a mass scale anymore, while we can see the dreck that rules that charts and airwaves. To see the discussion further devolve into a right wing attack is just more ignorance coming from another angle.

Not until you start asking 'why' will you start having a meaningful discussion on global intelligence levels. Why are Paris Hilton and Britney Spears being reported on as news, while most people have never heard of the Bilderberg Group? Who benefits from public ignorance? Could they possibly be manipulating the population? You know, they, the ones who own the media and news outlets. An intelligent citizenry capable of critical thinking and rational thought is against their interests. (George Carlin)

I'd advise raising the focus from left/right, stupid/intelligent to a more critical level of thinking. The best questions are 'why' and 'who benefits'. As it is, this is akin to complaining about loss of hair and vomiting then blaming it on God, rather than going to a doctors office and trying to eradicate the cancer having properly understood the symptoms.

My initial post had nothing to do with political ideology, nor really about stupid/intelligent dichotomies. I was saying Americans don't have the most basic of cultural literacy in some cases. While I agree that there is major problem with "news" in our culture, this lack of literacy should be taken care of in the schools. Simply put, I am shocked that many many Americans don't know what year Columbus discovered America. I reject "IQ" as a valid concept completely.