The Only Debate That Matters

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Dreamcatcher2003 · Thu 06 Apr 2006, 6:22 pm

Aside from commercial success, chart success, popularity, lyrical quality and intellectuality, where PSB lead by miles

Think about Erasure writing songs to Battleship Potemkin
Think about Erasure collaborating with other artists
Think about Erasure making any musical
Think about Erasure blending classic music and pop in almost seamless way
Think about Erasure running behind film score composers, trying to inject some different element into their songs
Think about Erasure doing whole albums for other singers/ bands
Think about Erasure being involved in other musical projects from other members
Think about Erasure making back-vocals to/ producing songs for others
Think about Erasure inspiring many to come after them
Hell, even think about Erasure shooting a movie, how terrible it may be...

If your answers to these questions are all yes, then you can compare them in the same platform...otherwise no debate.

PSB have long stamped its indelible imprint on musical history, and is one of the best things England has given to the world during the last 25 years

It is not only a question of memorable songs or twisting the good old knob that way or other; it is also pushing the musical boundaries as far as it can be. After chart success and sales diminish what actually remains is the artistic credibility.

Unfortunately Erasure have not so much there. They started out as a campy duo...remained as a campy duo...insisted on being a campy duo and are still a campy duo. They produce albums and singles...They ocassionally strike the good tune, a nice melody, a more or less well-crafted album. So what? Many do that. Erasure -or probably Andy Bell, I think Vince would be more lucky if he could find a better partner- they lack vision, they lack aspiration. Apart from Abba cover, what kind of idea did Erasure give birth except always acting as the cheekiest drag queens in the whole universe?

That's why the Boys, New Order and DM are always regarded as the elite trio of English pop scene while Erasure cannot hold a candle there. It is either Erasure wanted it that way or their talents are limited...but that doesn't matter here.

And I am sure "fishes in the sea" is as bad as the Night I Fell In Love...

Syncratic · #32 Post by **Syncratic** » Thu 06 Apr 2006, 6:37 pm

no, The Night in Fell in Love, is probably worse than ANY song. End of. It doesn't compare to Chorus.

Chart success is still debateable, and also irrelevant in this climate. Even when Erasure have had more number 1 albums in the UK.

And I'm sure even Erasure couldn't c*** up a musical any worse than the boys have done. Pet Shop Boys started out as a mysterious duo but ended up campy. At least Erasure here have been consistent.

I prefer the Boys but I can also see that it's pointless getting heated about a tired and tedious habitual debate. Move on.

Dreamcatcher2003 · Thu 06 Apr 2006, 6:41 pm

Syncratic wrote:
And I'm sure even Erasure couldn't c**k up a musical any worse than the boys have done. Pet Shop Boys started out as a mysterious duo but ended up campy. At least Erasure here have been consistent.

If we could just see something, ANYTHING new tried by Erasure, you might have a point...

Syncratic · #34 Post by **Syncratic** » Thu 06 Apr 2006, 6:47 pm

You've just quoted my point.

And as I've said, I prefer the Boys for many reasons, although most of the reasons you stated are redundant. Just because Erasure haven't ventured into many areas doesn't mean much.You could say pretty much the same about ABBA. What it comes down to is that Pet Shop Boys write better pop songs than Erasure.

Dreamcatcher2003 · Thu 06 Apr 2006, 7:36 pm

Syncratic wrote:You've just quoted my point.

And as I've said, I prefer the Boys for many reasons, although most of the reasons you stated are redundant. Just because Erasure haven't ventured into many areas doesn't mean much.You could say pretty much the same about ABBA. What it comes down to is that Pet Shop Boys write better pop songs than Erasure.

And you prove my point: The things you say redundant lay the basis why Boys are better pop songs than Erasure: Vision and aspiration, artistic and intellectual approach, always searching something different [within the limits of pop music of course]

If they did not approach Dusty Springfield, What have I done...would not be what it is now.

If they did not approach Enrico, It Couldn't Happen Here and Jelousy, which is a favourite song of Petheads (though not mine) would not be what they are.

If they did not work with Trevor, Left to my own devices would not be what it is now.

If they did not want to cover Elvis song as much as different from the original, Always on my mind would not be what it is today...just look at ABBA covers

If they did not like and want to inject classic music into their sounds, Behaviour would not be what it is now

If it was not Electronic or New Order, Release would not be probably recorded.

If it was not the collaboration with Liza Minelli, who knows Performance would not be envisaged in a theatrical manner which is the probable basis for Closer to Heaven which is probably one of the main elements why they were approached for the Battleship Potemkin.

These are minor examples for the sake of giving examples. The point is not to argue they are good or not.

What I am trying to say that PSB always pushed their boundaries, always thought going beyond mere 3-to-4 minute good pop song writers. They just did not feel content with themselves and thought bigger. Always in interaction with others, open new ideas etc

All these things and other "redundants" make PSB a pop institution while churning out good songs make a band only a pop act which is what Erasure are.

Dreamcatcher2003 · Thu 06 Apr 2006, 7:40 pm

Anyway I am going out now, Syncratic. Thinking and writing that much in English makes me a little bit tired

pulse · #37 Post by **pulse** » Thu 06 Apr 2006, 11:21 pm

There seems to be an obsession whith bashing Erasure here. I could go on and make a list (even 25 times that length) that Dreamcatcher2003 made, in Erasure's favour... but I won't. I think Erasure's music speaks volumes. It all comes down to one thing - the song. Nothing else. Anyone who purports to make it out to be something other than that suffers from delusions of grandeur.

Both bands are great at writing pop songs. I have always loved PSB for that and still do, but I think Erasure's songwriting and song-executing skills are superior and planet-smashing. It's only my opinion. Melody rules.

By the way, DM are sublime.

Syncratic · #38 Post by **Syncratic** » Fri 07 Apr 2006, 12:44 am

Dreamcatcher2003 wrote:Anyway I am going out now, Syncratic. Thinking and writing that much in English makes me a little bit tired

OK. I told a little fib regarding ABBA though, I just remembered, they did do a film, and the boys did write a musical.

It's OK, you don't have to defend your points. They're clearly obvious. My point was that great bands don't always tick the boxes. They should have their OWN criteria and not let current trends and fads worry them. Break the rules and redfine themselves. And make mistakes during the process. In many respects either band are just retreading old ground anyway. But yeah, of the two, the Boys have generally made better decisions, I don't disagree.

jormis · #39 Post by **jormis** » Fri 07 Apr 2006, 1:13 pm

pulse wrote:There seems to be an obsession whith bashing Erasure here. I could go on and make a list (even 25 times that length) that Dreamcatcher2003 made, in Erasure's favour... but I won't. I think Erasure's music speaks volumes. It all comes down to one thing - the song. Nothing else. Anyone who purports to make it out to be something other than that suffers from delusions of grandeur.

Both bands are great at writing pop songs. I have always loved PSB for that and still do, but I think Erasure's songwriting and song-executing skills are superior and planet-smashing. It's only my opinion. Melody rules.

Yesterday - inspired by this thread - I started to listen to Loveboat, one of my least favourite true Erasure records (Other People's Songs I don't want to even mention even though I just did). Apart from the paint-by-the-numbers middle part the record is good. IMHO, Erasure has a pretty good run from Chorus to Nightbird. Definitely worth listening to, but due to the limited sonic context they have chosen I cannot listen to very much Erasure on one go - need varying signals.

By the way, DM are sublime.

DM is from a totally different musical planet than Erasure but without doubt excellent in their own right. Melodically, DM is the least interesting from the trio of DM, Erasure and PSB.

Undertaker · #40 Post by **Undertaker** » Fri 07 Apr 2006, 2:24 pm

pulse wrote:There seems to be an obsession whith bashing Erasure here. I could go on and make a list (even 25 times that length) that Dreamcatcher2003 made, in Erasure's favour... but I won't. I think Erasure's music speaks volumes. It all comes down to one thing - the song. Nothing else. Anyone who purports to make it out to be something other than that suffers from delusions of grandeur.

Both bands are great at writing pop songs. I have always loved PSB for that and still do, but I think Erasure's songwriting and song-executing skills are superior and planet-smashing. It's only my opinion. Melody rules.

By the way, DM are sublime.

I can see why you love PSB and you are a big fan. It's obvious because you joined the forum all of 2 days ago and the reason you joined was because Union Street has flopped and was getting the piss taken out of it. If it had done well, you wouldn't be here.

Anyway, i'm sure Erasure will get another decent hit when they release a lead single in the first week of January, or release it for one week only. Added to that, the moderators at Erasure towers can travel to every single shop in the U.K and flog them to people living abroad. Sh*t, i forgot, you lot don't care about chart positions

Dave

Syncratic · #41 Post by **Syncratic** » Fri 07 Apr 2006, 2:31 pm

From what I understand the problem at Erasure Towers is that their fans can't take any kind of criticism that can be construed as negative or detached. Everything is great in their opinion.It's like they've got blinkers on, or are putting their fingers in their ears and humming.

At least here if there's one aspect of a PSB release we hate, we're among the first to throw it open to debate.

I gather now that they don't allow any lurkers.

joncool5 · #42 Post by **joncool5** » Fri 07 Apr 2006, 2:41 pm

I like Erasure and apart from Loveboat think the majority of their work is of a decent standard. Erasure have produced some really good pop songs over the years and Andy Bell is a great performer. However, they can't be compared to PSB as PSB are far more ambitious, experimental, challenging and diverse. While the results aren't always successful aleast they try to be different.

stoo · #43 Post by **stoo** » Fri 07 Apr 2006, 3:02 pm

joncool5 wrote:I like Erasure and apart from Loveboat think the majority of their work is of a decent standard. Erasure have produced some really good pop songs over the years and Andy Bell is a great performer. However, they can't be compared to PSB as PSB are far more ambitious, experimental, challenging and diverse. While the results aren't always successful aleast they try to be different.

i think loveboat is greatly underrated, maybe the production leaves a lot to be desired but theres some great songs on there, perchance to dream!!!

Undertaker · #44 Post by **Undertaker** » Fri 07 Apr 2006, 7:53 pm

Syncratic wrote:From what I understand the problem at Erasure Towers is that their fans can't take any kind of criticism that can be construed as negative or detached. Everything is great in their opinion.It's like they've got blinkers on, or are putting their fingers in their ears and humming.

At least here if there's one aspect of a PSB release we hate, we're among the first to throw it open to debate.

I gather now that they don't allow any lurkers.

Thats exactly what it's like. Just because the sales figures i posted were poor, i got banned. If they had sold well, i'd have been a super hero.

Take the thread that was posted entitled ''Union Street Flops.'' Most of the fans started losing it. Some saying that the poster was ''making them nervous with their negative vibes'' and demanded the title of the topic was changed. Not so long after, it was. Now if the title of the thread was something like ''Union Street selling thousands'' Everyone would be loving it.

You can't have an opinion over there, unless you are praising something up. Quite sad.

Dave

pulse · #45 Post by **pulse** » Fri 07 Apr 2006, 9:03 pm

Wow, aren't we bitter. Here's (yet another) example of you being wrong. I have actually been a member of this board for quite a while under "ubersong" or (something like that), but I have never really signed in to post, so I forgot my password and to which email address it was forwarded to. So' I've been lurking for quite a while, plus I used to be subscribed to the PSB yahoogroups posting board.

Anyway, I just wanted to provide you with yet another example of you being wrong... you *know* I like doing that once every posting.

]

Plus, if you really must know, I have been a fan since West End girls was released in Canada in 1985, but it really took off when I heard "Opportunities". I also own every album, and some singles/12"'s, including the "So Hard" 12".

And you are correct, I have zero interest in sales. As long as I love the music, sales/chart positions have zero worth to me. I understand that you are different in this regard, and respect that. Can we now just move on?

Undertaker wrote:
pulse wrote:
I can see why you love PSB and you are a big fan. It's obvious because you joined the forum all of 2 days ago and the reason you joined was because Union Street has flopped and was getting the piss taken out of it. If it had done well, you wouldn't be here.

Dave