Blair, leader of Europe

[glennjridge]

I really feel the middle east got as close a chance as it will get in a loooong time to have a chance to change the modus operandi there.

I try not to look down on a people but in the end it all comes down to, in the middle east the majority allow a minority of zealot fundy religious types to dominate their whole region and continually drag it down.

if at some point they arent willing to step up to the plate then they arent worthy of freedoms the west has.

[Danny C]

fact is that intelligence services from all nations and the UN and the democrats in congress believed saddam had WMD!

If that's what your intelligence said, maybe you oughta be thinking about improving it so it doesn't get such important things completely wrong? Just a thought.

there were 17 UN resolutions and weapon inpsections and yet people suddenly started disseminating the bold-faced lie about bush having lied about WMD. this is what pisses me off more than anything else.

I don't think people are pissed off about quite the same things you are accusing them. It's quite an annoying strawman habit you have here.

I thnk they are pissed off that the US, for its own secret reasons, decided to get rid of a guy that posed little to no danger to the rest of the world, when there are plenty of other regimes more horrible that we could have got rid of. How can we justify war on Iraq when the situation in (say) Sudan is 100 times worse?

I don't think anyone is pissed off that Bush lied to get rid of a dictator. You hardly need justification to get rid of people like that now do you? However I do think they are pissed off that Bush led us all into a war, the consequences of which we were not prepared for. When you take the course of action that Bush and Blair did, you better hope you know what you are doing. These guys clearly didn't, and we're paying the price for that.

and people say that the outcome of the war was not worth the effort. brilliant defetist attitude from the weak-kneed europeans and liberals!

No, I think it's just realism. Iraq is in chaos. You can't try and pretend that everything is great there, or will be in the near future, just because it's "demoralising" for us to hear that.

liberals to me are the most blinkered, hate-filled people in the world. they still cannot get over the loss of the 2000 election and all they want is bush's skin. it'S ridiculous. imagine if we all stood united behind the war: it would be a display of unity and it would intimidate the terrorists and not encourage them to commit more atrocities.

You're seriously deluded if you think "terrorists" care what the people of the US think about the war in Iraq. And you can't expect "hate-filled liberals" to go against what they think is right just so it looks better to outsiders. What kind of reason is that for doing anything?

Still, the next time conservatives try and have a Democrat president impeached for getting a blow job, I welcome your view that they should adopt a united front instead of trying to stab him in the back.

it's funny how many of those bush haters have the same talking points as the terrorists. so now in iraq they have had free elctions for the first time ever and a democratically elected government and yet people only focus on terrorism as if the bombings delegitimised the invasion and the democracy.

Again, I don't think anyone's saying that. You really must stop this strawmanning, it makes you look like a fool (or rather, more of one). I think the criticism is that you can't have a fully functioning democracy in a war zone, and it's naive to think that you can.

[Danny C]

I really feel the middle east got as close a chance as it will get in a loooong time to have a chance to change the modus operandi there.

I try not to look down on a people but in the end it all comes down to, in the middle east the majority allow a minority of zealot fundy religious types to dominate their whole region and continually drag it down.

if at some point they arent willing to step up to the plate then they arent worthy of freedoms the west has.

I don't actually disagree with much of what you wrote here, although I would probably have couched it in more diplomatic language.

I think trying to force democracy onto people is an exercise in futility. I have always maintained that dialogue is the best way to get things to change.

Eventually people in the Middle East will wake up and realise that they too want the free, liberal, democratic societies that we all have in the West.

I mean, look at Iran - it's already happening there. I know they're a pretty horrible theocracy, but the younger generation is far more Westernised than the people who rule that place. The last thing we need to do is radicalise that younger generation by bombing seven kinds of shit out of Iran in yet another misguided war.

In the West, we shoot ourselves in the foot so often by behaving in a belligerent fashion, by interfering where we aren't wanted. I think we just need to do our own thing and let other people do their own thing, and sooner or later people will follow our example because they realise how cool video games and pop music and short skirts and space hoppers are, and how crappy it is to live in a place where you can't express yourself or better yourself or choose your own relationships.

[glennjridge]

first off,I've also heard about the younger generation in Iran and all the promise of them wanting to change.thats good news.

but you know, I've heard that for awhile now.the world doesnt stop on the promise of a future "maybe".

9/11 shows that no matter how much restraint the west shows,you can't assume minding ones own business isnt going to cost thousands of lives and come back to bite you when dealing with a religious extremist culture that is out to blame the west and or/jews for all its own systems failings.

they play on the wests restraint.we arent what I would call belligerant.you would be wise to read up on sharia law.at some point you might want to decide which culture you feel is more in line with REAL intolerance and belligerance.

[Danny C]

9/11 shows that no matter how much restraint the west shows,you can't assume minding ones own business isnt going to cost thousands of lives and come back to bite you when dealing with a religious extremist culture that is out to blame the west and or/jews for all its own systems failings.

Hang on, 9/11 didn't happen because we were "minding our own business". Bin Laden's stated aim is pretty unambiguous here - he wants US troops out of Saudi Arabia and he wants the US to end its support for Israel. That's the reason he hasn't attacked Sweden, France etc etc - those countries do actually mind their own business. The US was attacked because its armies are in Saudi and because it backs Israeli activities.

they play on the wests restraint.we arent what I would call belligerant.you would be wise to read up on sharia law.at some point you might want to decide which culture you feel is more in line with REAL intolerance and belligerance.

Umm, I didn't mention intolerance, just belligerence. Don't be strawmanning like alig now. And the only people being hurt by Sharia law are the citizens of those countries who operate it.

So far as belligerence is concerned, you might want to look up the meaning of the word. We've attacked Iraq and fomented war in plenty of other countries. That's belligerence. Whereas I don't remember Iran or Iraq or Syria invading us at any time in the recent past.

I think you'll find that if the US stops starting wars all over the world or trying to topple other world leaders, that it wouldn't have so much hate hurled at it.

[GalataPSB]

"""Blair, leader of Europe""

what a stpuid subject...

[alig]

And let's nor forget it's muslims killing muslims in Iraq and Palestine and not the West. The West has nothing to do with it. It's all about intolerance and zealotry.

[glennjridge]

danny true they dont attack sweden. but then again, sweden isnt active in global foriegn policy. they are like the crowd in the stands while the players play the game.the players run the risk from the opposite teams.

as far as 9/11, this isnt the religious fundys planet.they cant draw a line in the ground in the world to intimidate the USA to cancel all their interests in this world.thats their problem to get over.

but frankly,its not so much us being on their land, these people blow up their own mosques and fellow believers.that should tell you how full of shit they are on the idea of foriegners on their land being against their religion.

its simply thug turf warfare.you dont belong on MY street.

thats a strange thing to say about countrys like syria/Iraq.
ask the Israeli or kuwaiit about invasions by them.they dont invade the US simply out of inability. when they thought they had the power to invade, they used it in their own respective areas.

its just that they are seemingly always in a state of military ruin due to our, well belligerence thankfully, and their own corruption.

[glennjridge]

And let's nor forget it's muslims killing muslims in Iraq and Palestine and not the West. The West has nothing to do with it. It's all about intolerance and zealotry.

so true. thats the fundamental problem from that area. this isnt a US thing. that area of the globe has been nothing but a problem since 4000 years ago.

thats why I am always taken back by the people who in the safety of the west playing devils advocate for the middle east. these types dont know what real oppression is, yet they are going to take a shot and blame the west for the faiure of the easts civilization and culture.

thankfully it usually doesnt take, as most people do know how well they have it in the west. by and far, we've done it right.thats not something to feel guilty of.

[Deschanel]

And let's nor forget it's muslims killing muslims in Iraq and Palestine and not the West. The West has nothing to do with it. It's all about intolerance and zealotry.

so true. thats the fundamental problem from that area. this isnt a US thing. that area of the globe has been nothing but a problem since 4000 years ago.

thats why I am always taken back by the people who in the safety of the west playing devils advocate for the middle east. these types dont know what real oppression is, yet they are going to take a shot and blame the west for the faiure of the easts civilization and culture.

thankfully it usually doesnt take, as most people do know how well they have it in the west. by and far, we've done it right.thats not something to feel guilty of.

You must be the most deeply stupid person I have ever encountered on the Internet, and that's saying something.

Every single thing you've said is wrong. Every single thing.

Are you just drinking, or is it crystal meth that's making you bother us with your excessive typing here? I am clinically,scientifically interested. When did you start with alcohol and drugs? Does it feel good to type nonsense here when you're high?

[glennjridge]

that doesnt seem to target what I posted.
you seem a little beside yourself with that response. whats the matter?

did you forget to lock your bedroom door and your mom walk in on one of your cross dressing sessions again?

[gregf]

Oh what a smorgasbord of nonsense.

Mmm, let start with this.

fact is that intelligence services from all nations and the UN and the democrats in congress
believed saddam had WMD! .... there were 17 UN resolutions and weapon inpsections and
yet people suddenly started disseminating the bold-faced lie about bush having lied
about WMD. this is what pisses me off more than anything else.

Everyone in the rest of the world was deeply suspicious about Bush's claims of WMD.
Many including myself publicly stated at that time, it was a deliberate lie.
And that is now proven beyond doubt.

The intelligence services of most "Coalition of the Willing" countries knew it was a lie.

Please look at the story of Scott Ritter in the U.S. and
Andrew Wilke here. These are just a few examples
of where the people who knew, were suppressed by right wing Leaders.

I am sure there are U.K. equivalents, just can't remember who now.

Just too much nonsense to cover. Alig this is the war you wanted to have.
The whole planet said "Don't do it". And now you are bitter with us ?

If the U.S. can't admit its mistakes, at least to itself, then we are all in deep trouble.

[GalataPSB]

And let's nor forget it's muslims killing muslims in Iraq and Palestine and not the West. The West has nothing to do with it. It's all about intolerance and zealotry.

Is it a joke??

[Danny C]

Is it a joke??

I'm beginning to think it is. Either someone's alt-nick, or just a chancer taking the piss.

[glennjridge]

greg you said it was a deliberate lie and then you said we should admit our mistakes.

althought the outcome is the same in terms of the war, I think there is alot of space between a deliberate lie or a mistake.

but in the end,saddam hung himself literally. he picked the wrong time to be the rebel when after 9/11 the US and its admin was pretty emotional about future attacks.

I know you posted about what inspectors were saying,but it had also long been known of the games the Iraqi officials were playing with these inspectors.so for all intent and purpose even though they were saying that.......it was a bit of a mystery really.

so as far as saddam,I mean theres that kenny rogers song about card playing the gambler. "ya got to know when to hold em know when to fold em".