Israeli air strikes (MOD WARNING P. 23)

[patrick]

Israeli War of Independence/ "al-Nakba" (The Disaster) (1948-1949)--Upon independence, Israel was invaded by the armies of six Arab nations: Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan)

This is where it all falls apart - the asinine pretense that the relevant history begins in 1948 with Israeli "independence." This is usually promulgated by the sort of people who seem to think US race relations began in 1964.

The Six-Day War (1967 In a rapid pre-emptive attack, Israel crushed the military forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria and seized large amounts of land from each.

And in another rapid pre-emptive attack, Hitler annexed Poland.

[glennjridge]

poland wasnt building up on the borders preparing to attack hitlers germany.Israel defended itself with a pre-emptive attack in the strictest sense of the word.unless your going to tell me you think they were amassing there on the borders to all defect to israel and bring their equipment with them...

Egypt amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border[8] and closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, receiving strong support from other Arab countries.
Jordan, and Syria, The nations of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria also contributed troops and arms to the Arab forces.---wikipedia.

and nothing falls apart in an assinine way as its been the jews thru history that have been the victim of regimes from the romans,nazi,arabs,hamas,fatah till even modern day. but as I always say, if liberals want to keep aligning themselves along with that sad sick historys gallery of fools be my guest.

[patrick]

Israel defended itself with a pre-emptive attack in the strictest sense of the word.

Not really. Israel was rightly seen as an occupation by an invading force. Now of course this doesn't excuse attacks on civilians and such but Israel has never held the moral high ground and to spin its expansionist aggression as "pre-emptive" is disingenuous. If I move into your house and put your family in the basement, and then attack your neighbors because they have a problem with that, I'm not being pre-emptive; I'm being a maniac.

and nothing falls apart in an assinine way as its been the jews thru history that have been the victim of regimes from the romans,nazi,arabs,hamas,fatah till even modern day.

Blah blah blah. The usual nonsense spiel that ignores the fact that all we need to do to understand this problem is look at a regional map from 1947.

[glennjridge]

well you seem to forget this "occupational force" obtained their parition with the seal of approval from the united nations not via invasion and only went to war when it was clear they were going to have to.

BTW, your analogy fails for another reason. Israel isnt there because a dart was thrown on the map,its history is there, hence why its considered holy places for the Israeli AND the arabs as they share the same history and land. who's house? well how far back do you want to go?

[patrick]

well you seem to forget this "occupational force" obtained their parition with the seal of approval from the united nations not via invasion and only went to war when it was clear they were going to have to.

Something tells me if the United Nations voted to give gypsies Illinois as a sovereign nation you might just have a problem with that.

http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/is ... ne_map.jpg

Nothing in that picture could possibly explain why people in the region are behaving as they do?

BTW, your analogy fails for another reason. Israel isnt there because a dart was thrown on the map,its history is there

And you advocate returning America to its native tribes when, exactly?

[glennjridge]

oh its just down to me? dont you live in melting pot los angeles gringo? but lets say your question were to happen here in modern day USA,would you or I pick up a weapon,or would we submit(I'm sure grumbling a bit) to the united nations if they ordered that?

you say your question almost as if you assume that people are all animals and all it would take is some decision we dont like and violence naturally follows.

no. and that,alot of times is the fundamental difference between the east and west ultimatly and why we are so calm, and their neck of the globe isnt
the arabs and palestinians at the heart of the issue,simply didnt accept living with the Israeli.

the hatred of the jew goes far beyond that tiny peace of land.

[patrick]

oh its just down to me?

No. But you're here and I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument. I note you're incapable of addressing any of them and have therefore chosen to attack a straw man instead. Unsurprising but disappointing.

It's an intractable problem, because the only solution is everyone living together in friendship and that's not going to happen any time soon - and not because of your racist rationale above. How many new Israeli settlements have encroached on Palestinian land since 1948?

the hatred of the jew goes far beyond that tiny peace of land

The last refuge of the man argued into a corner on Israel is always to claim antisemitism. I'm as indifferent to Jews as I am anyone else on this planet. It's the far right terror government of Israel I have a problem with (just as I have a problem with Hamas and not the average Palenstinian). Israel /= Judaism.

[gregf]

Glen, please, please, stop and consider, there are two sides to this.
Your lack of knowledge is causing this argument, and the whole conflict.

Israel has a long history of terrorism, ethnic cleansing and genocide.

The Stern gangs invented terrorism in the post war era. One favourite
trick was to kidnap a British officer, and hang him from a tree out of town.
Then when more British soldiers arrived to cut him down, they in turn would be
blown to bits by booby traps. Leaders of the stern gangs included Menachim Begin
and Yitzhak Shamir who both went on to be rewarded as PM of Israel.

The Palestinian people now in Gaza, Jordan, Lebanon and elsewhere were ethnically
cleansed to make room for Israeli's. This is still happening slowly today.

We have seen it for decades. Israeli troops blocking access to Palestinian owned
shops. Settlers (with American accents) seizing Palestinian farm land. If you came
home and found Jewish settlers living in your home, I think your attitude would be
different. You are then living on the footpath outside your home when a Jewish
family walks past. The mother says to the child "Spit on the A-rabs" and the little
child leans over and spits on you. I think your attitude would be different.

The lesson that down trodden people everywhere learnt was that if you use bombs
and terrorism against civilians, the US will reward you with statehood and a military.

In 1982 the Israeli army surrounded Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon. President
Reagan organised the evacuation of Palestinian soldiers protecting the camps, promising
to protect the women and children. An Israeli general organised for "Christian" Falangists
to get into to the camps where they massacred the women and children. That general
was Ariel Sharon who was rewarded with becoming Israeli P.M.

Israelis have been assaulting Palestinians on our televisions and in our newspapers for
at least 35 years of my memory. The hatred of the Israelis is still on show : Gaza 2009 :

Inside Moussa's house, most of the furniture has been broken up, the electrical equipment destroyed, crockery smashed and the refrigerator upended.

In the bedrooms, all the clothes were dumped on the floor and smelled like they had been urinated on.

Family photographs had been defaced, some with drawings of penises, stars of David and other slogans.

Graffiti sprayed in green paint on the walls declared "No Arabs living in Israel", "Israel Lives!" and "Arabs need 2 die".

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/amid-t ... 39541.html

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious,
or national group. Israel has long been attempting to wipe out the Palestinians : that is genocide. If you
don't believe me read the regurgitated genocide fantasy posted early on in this thread.

To avoid guilt, the 2nd & 3rd generation Israelis have become psychotic with anger and hatred to the Palestinians.
We are not against Israeli's ; we are trying to help by stopping this madness, a word deliberately chosen.
How can it help Israel if you give them military domination and at the same time encourage paranoia.
No side will ever, ever, make peace in such a situation. This is your global stuff up. You block us from
fixing it yet wont fix it yourself. Then describe you it as "unfashionable".

It has been clear to us all for decades that the problem is Americans, who with breathtaking
ignorance of the outside world, pray in church "that Israel never makes peace", while
sending billions in military aid to continue the psychotic genocide. With friends like you ...

So Glen, please stop being the problem. Learn some history, show some compassion,
and become part of the solution.

[glennjridge]

I gave you an answer to your question patrick, you just dont accept it.your issue is with the united nations. your issue is with the oslo agreement.

if you think you are the revision guy in the history of the world that is going to school us that anti-semitism is some kind of parnoia of Israel, when history books have all the evidence of the many times arab armies tried to defeat Israel....and the nazi....and the hamas, and fatah...and the romans,and your here to tell us its akin to the boogeyman under the bed, you aint the guy thats got the chops to do it.

as far as the land encrouched,where you been rookie? the Israeli take control of areas that are used as attack points and create buffer zones.not unlike a parent taking their kids property when he does stupid things. too bad....so sad,thats exactly what any competant military should do.

[glennjridge]

greg you make it obvious you have no idea the scope of what true genocide is. you use it without any reverence making it seem silly.

when appplied to israel...thats just a buzzword anti-semitics use against Israel to try and turn on its head what happened to the jews and make it seem now THEY are doing it to others thereby trying to effectivly erase what they went thru in the holocaust.its a tactic mainly by people who are anti-jew and holocaust deniers.

cause if you knew what genocide was,if the Israeli were practicing it since 48,48,can you count greg? I need not say more.the nazi started their final solution in 1942. the war ended in 1945. do I need to tell you how many jews died in 3 years? now figure 1948 to 2009 for Israel/palestinians.your bias and careless and ignorant use of the term genocide is pretty damning of anti-semitism.

greg, just curious,do you believe 6 million jews were systematically exterminated by nazi germany?

[gregf]

Of course the Nazis killed 6 million Jews.
The Nazis also killed 27 million Soviet citizens and many other nationalities.
Unlike you, I don't deny facts.

I list out detailed points ; and you resort to calling me a holocaust denier.

Of course far few Palestinians have died.
Genocide is not defined by how many; it is the act of genocide itself.
You are saying it is ok to murder, because that does not compare to being a serial killer.
Are you saying that the holocaust is not real genocide compared to 60 million dead ?

You seem to justify Israel's crimes just because it was done to them first.
You seem stuck that a victim of genocide, is incapable of genocide.
i think you're avoiding your own guilt as a sponsor of Israel.

I see you as the same sort of right wing person who is a holocaust denier.
We have conservatives here to who say there was no genocide of Aboriginals.
It so sadly frustrating.

[glennjridge]

by your uninformed defintion of genocide,any countrys police force has been commiting genocide because in the course of their history they have killed criminals in various cases.

genocide is the systematic program of killing people as routine.to wipe away from a land.

the Israeli allow palestinians and arabs their enemys to live amoung them in their areas and they have the same rights.

the USA funding of Israel? seriously......what would have happened do you think if this small group of a people didnt have serious weapons when it was decided by the united nations that they could live there... and the arabs decided they just didnt like that idea and they attacked Israel? they would have been annihilated by all those arab armys. thats cool? they were told they could live there by the UN.

the only reason they survived is because of our weapons and funding.and as history showed despite the UN's manate, the arabs wanted war rather than co-existence.it was inevitable they were going to have to defend themselves. you would have not had them been able to defend themselves as you dont like us funding them. as such,your biased against jews.

[GalataPSB]

just the same, the palestinian people voted in hamas a militant force hostile to Israel.
americans voted in Bush who made war on Iraq.

No! That's not the same! You shouldn't compare them. Conditions are different. We know who rules your country/economy/media!! It's not the same..

and who would that be galata, "the jews?"

NO COMMENT

http://en.timeturk.com/israel-we-contro ... aberi.html

Israel: We Control Stupid Americans

Israeli spokeswoman, Tzipora Menache, stated that in America you can criticize God, but you can’t criticize Israel"


Another Israeli spokeswoman, Tzipora Menache, stated that she was not worried about negative ramifications the Israeli onslaught on Gaza might have on the way the Obama administration would view Israel. She said "You know very well, and the stupid Americans know equally well, that we control their government, irrespective of who sits in the White House. You see, I know it and you know it that no American president can be in a position to challenge us even if we do the unthinkable. What can they (Americans) do to us? We control congress, we control the media, we control show biz, and we control everything in America.In America you can criticize God, but you can’t criticize Israel"


http://www.daily.pk/world/americas/9334 ... icans.html

[gregf]

Of course, no problem with military support ; I said there is a problem when
overwhelming military support is given. That side has no reason for peace.

As you are just twisting my words, no point going on.

For other readers, I have been trying to show Glen that Israel has it's fair share of atrocities.
That does not make me "following the ancient path of anti-Semitism".
Many Jewish people understand this : are they anti-Semitic too ?

That's the nub of the problem isn't it. With undoubtedly good intentions Americans
see all criticism of their child as bias, and provide even more money and guns causing
ever more problems.

Sadly, money + guns + stupidity > (defeat) facts + wisdom.

[GalataPSB]

I have no idea about politics!!!