The First Islam Country of Europe?

[Your Funny Uncle]

Of course we are still evolving, but the timescale of evolution is not the timescale of individual lives, and I agree that our current problems do need addressing in the latter timescale.

I think that although technology is to a large extent what has got us into a lot of the mess we are in today, it's the only thing that can save us. The way we live is too dependant on it, and there are just too many of us to do anything else without mass starvation. What we need to do is to spend half of what we currently spend on weapons and "defense" on research into getting ourselves out of the mess we are in.

I don't see what any of that has to do with believing in god, though.

[markus]

Of course we are still evolving, but the timescale of evolution is not the timescale of individual lives, and I agree that our current problems do need addressing in the latter timescale.

I think that although technology is to a large extent what has got us into a lot of the mess we are in today, it's the only thing that can save us. The way we live is too dependant on it, and there are just too many of us to do anything else without mass starvation. What we need to do is to spend half of what we currently spend on weapons and "defense" on research into getting ourselves out of the mess we are in.

I don't see what any of that has to do with believing in god, though.

Well because if there IS no other solution, nothing to stop the ball from rolling, then the idea that a creator would come to rescue is the only hope left, or it's adios mankind. What would an idividual have to sacrifice to be open for such an idea? =Giving up the human ego. Without such hope, I'd say if things get more rough than they are in the future, we'll be seing mass suicide pacts happening all over the world.

[Your Funny Uncle]

So your basically saying we just stop and hope God helps us? Sorry but that is not about giving up on ego, it's about giving up on everything, especially rationality. Surely the logical course of action in that case is to try to save ourselves, and if happens that god comes along and helps then so much the better.

[markus]

So your basically saying we just stop and hope God helps us? Sorry but that is not about giving up on ego, it's about giving up on everything, especially rationality. Surely the logical course of action in that case is to try to save ourselves, and if happens that god comes along and helps then so much the better.

I'm not saying what anyone should do. I just wanted to paint some colour to this topic, maybe provoce some new ideas in someone. I think all these questions will become more and more relevant in the future. But most people wont care. What happened in Nazi germany would happen all over again for all the autonom people, just following the flock. All disaster movies give a realistic picture of how humans tend to behave in crisis. There will always be the heroes, and the bad guys. When focused on living a self-centered, greedy life, you don't just become a person with strong moral backbone over night. A good religion can provide a person with that, a bad religion can make things even worse. There is no such thing as "religion" more than there is just "animals" or "music" There's much more to it than that.

[Your Funny Uncle]

Of course all religions are not the same, but my argument is that they are all wrong in their core assertions, and I don't buy for a second the idea that religion is the only way to give someone a set of morals. Of course looking beyond ones own needs to the needs of the human race or better yet the needs of the planet is an important thing to do. I just don't see why it's necessary to believe in an all-powerful sky-god to achieve this.

The current estimate for the number of galaxies in the universe is over a hundred billion. The milky way contains around a hundred billion stars. Wikipedia tells me the current population of the world is 6.788 billion. Assuming the milky way to be an average galaxy that gives roughly one thousand five hundred billion stars in the universe for each human being currently alive. Let's assume that I accept that a creature that can create, maintain and control all aspects of such an immense and complex place exists. What could possibly give us the right to anthropomorhise this creature to the extent that we believe that it would seriously care whether it was worshipped in a specific way or not? To my mind THAT is where the egotistical thinking lies.

[markus]

Of course all religions are not the same, but my argument is that they are all wrong in their core assertions, and I don't buy for a second the idea that religion is the only way to give someone a set of morals. Of course looking beyond ones own needs to the needs of the human race or better yet the needs of the planet is an important thing to do. I just don't see why it's necessary to believe in an all-powerful sky-god to achieve this.

The current estimate for the number of galaxies in the universe is over a hundred billion. The milky way contains around a hundred billion stars. Wikipedia tells me the current population of the world is 6.788 billion. Assuming the milky way to be an average galaxy that gives roughly one thousand five hundred billion stars in the universe for each human being currently alive. Let's assume that I accept that a creature that can create, maintain and control all aspects of such an immense and complex place exists. What could possibly give us the right to anthropomorhise this creature to the extent that we believe that it would seriously care whether it was worshipped in a specific way or not? To my mind THAT is where the egotistical thinking lies.

Well I would say, if a medicine works then it's good medicine. Is it selfish of a person who's considering suicide but gives some religion a chance, and it helps, to tell someone else "hey, this worked for me, you want to try?" The real truth about religion is that John Frizl could walk into certain churches and be "saved" and be told he's a wonderful, loving idividual, just perfect as he is. "Just make a donation and Jesus will be very happy with you" If that doesn't make you react in anyway then what does it tell about you?

Everyone needs to make a choice for themselves wheather they ought to look for something to help them build up their charecter. Someone may think they're just fine, yet your co-workers or family thinks you're an ass. It's those choices that makes you become who you are in a situation where you're put to a test. Do you have such "guidance" to provide someone? You know there exists no treatment for such a thing as pedophilia in any society. What if religion could help such a person, willing to change? Do you have the right to limit someone else's freedom to go search for that, just because you don't think you need any? I think you'll say no, but religious freedom is at risk everywhere where people are getting more and more sick of all the hypocrisy and evil done by it. But it's still not a fact that it's ALL like that. People always tend to follow the least resistant line, not educate themselves, just generalize and say it's all the same.

[Your Funny Uncle]

Well I can't speak for all athesists, but I for one have always had a "live and let live" approach to other people. I can (as I have here) argue with them as to why I think they are wrong, but I respect completely their right to disagree with me. So long as they are doing no harm people should be able to do and say what they like in my opinion. I suspect that amongst atheists you would find a higher percentage of people who take this view than amongst the religious, although I've no statistics to back this up.

When reading a few paragraphs that someone has posted on an internet forum, it's easy to misinterpret what they think. Generalisations are necessary if you want to make a post that people will actually read. That doesn't mean that the poster isn't aware of the subtler undercurrents of the argument. I don't believe for example that all religious people and all religions routinely brainwash all their children, but I am concerned about this when it happens, and it does happen a lot in several different religions to differing degrees.

[markus]

Well I can't speak for all athesists, but I for one have always had a "live and let live" approach to other people. I can (as I have here) argue with them as to why I think they are wrong, but I respect completely their right to disagree with me. So long as they are doing no harm people should be able to do and say what they like in my opinion. I suspect that amongst atheists you would find a higher percentage of people who take this view than amongst the religious, although I've no statistics to back this up.

When reading a few paragraphs that someone has posted on an internet forum, it's easy to misinterpret what they think. Generalisations are necessary if you want to make a post that people will actually read. That doesn't mean that the poster isn't aware of the subtler undercurrents of the argument. I don't believe for example that all religious people and all religions routinely brainwash all their children, but I am concerned about this when it happens, and it does happen a lot in several different religions to differing degrees.

I agree, although since all parents affect their children in some way it should be intresteing what exactly they're brainwashing their children to become. I have a friend who became let's just say "religious" in his early 20's despite his parents putting every effort into making him an atheist. It's such a sensitive topic that they can't discuss it at all. He's never even gotten a chance to explain why he made the decision. It has only improved his life made him a productive, honest, hard working member of society. So it all goes both ways. And I'm going straight back to the good religion versus bad religion thing. That's what it's all about. As one historic person said: "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." This is the guideline that people who DO consider themselves as religious should take into consideration.

But I think this is as far as this topic should go before we get a religious war in here.

[Danny C]

The current estimate for the number of galaxies in the universe is over a hundred billion. The milky way contains around a hundred billion stars. Wikipedia tells me the current population of the world is 6.788 billion. Assuming the milky way to be an average galaxy that gives roughly one thousand five hundred billion stars in the universe for each human being currently alive. Let's assume that I accept that a creature that can create, maintain and control all aspects of such an immense and complex place exists. What could possibly give us the right to anthropomorhise this creature to the extent that we believe that it would seriously care whether it was worshipped in a specific way or not? To my mind THAT is where the egotistical thinking lies.

You are spot on. To believe that we on this obscure little planet out of literally trillions of planets in the universe are the entire reason for this universe's existence is truly rampant, awe-inspiring egotism.

You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

[Your Funny Uncle]

You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

Hmm. Well we certainly are made up of the same stuff as all other life from bacteria to trees, but I prefer Carl Sagan's take on it...

[whateverman42]

This has been an interesting read; thanks to both markus and yfu. But I must say yfu must be the most intelligent poster on these boards.

When reading a few paragraphs that someone has posted on an internet forum, it's easy to misinterpret what they think. Generalisations are necessary if you want to make a post that people will actually read. That doesn't mean that the poster isn't aware of the subtler undercurrents of the argument.

Well said.

Markus touched on many topics, but the core of this argument should be whether god exists. Whether we need him or not, and social stigmas surrounding atheists and the religious are off-shoots.

If god exists, why does he demand obedience and worship? Surely the most intelligent and complex being there could ever be would not care about being worshipped, a human construct. Actually think about it markus, say you have an ant colony and you demand the ants pray to you every Sunday or whatever. What does that do for you? Why do you care if they worship you? And you're just a human, why would the greatest god ever possibly need that kind of ego-boost? If there is a god, I think he's be more happy with atheists than the religious, because they use the gifts god made for them like rationality and intelligence, rather than blindly worship like a parrot repeating words.

If I think the green giant is watching me, and I feel safe and structured and become a valuable member of society, that doesn't make it any more true. So why should I deceive myself? Because its easy and makes me happy? That's the crux of your argument. Its childish, I'm sorry, its like an ostrich burying its head in the sand. And some people think that's the way to go about things, but life is complicated and its not necessarily about feeling good, but about being true to ourselves.

Answer me this one thing: pretend god doesn't exist. Now, would you go kill someone? You're not going to be banished into hell after all. If you answered no, then why wouldn't you? Because you're decent? That's where I'm coming from. You don't need a paternal father figure threatening you in order to do the right thing. We've progressed to the point where we don't need it anymore, our species has grown up. Imagine a 5 year old wishing he could move out so he could eat cookies any time he wants, because his parents restrict his sugar intake. Then imagine 20 years later, do you think he'll be eating cookies nonstop? Course not, he grew up and is able to structure his own life because he learned a lot and got a lot smarter. Humans have had many centuries to get to this point, but we've finally turned the corner, and that's why religion can't torture people any more and atheism is on the rise. It will only continue.

[markus]

This has been an interesting read; thanks to both markus and yfu. But I must say yfu must be the most intelligent poster on these boards.

When reading a few paragraphs that someone has posted on an internet forum, it's easy to misinterpret what they think. Generalisations are necessary if you want to make a post that people will actually read. That doesn't mean that the poster isn't aware of the subtler undercurrents of the argument.

Well said.

Markus touched on many topics, but the core of this argument should be whether god exists. Whether we need him or not, and social stigmas surrounding atheists and the religious are off-shoots.

If god exists, why does he demand obedience and worship? Surely the most intelligent and complex being there could ever be would not care about being worshipped, a human construct. Actually think about it markus, say you have an ant colony and you demand the ants pray to you every Sunday or whatever. What does that do for you? Why do you care if they worship you? And you're just a human, why would the greatest god ever possibly need that kind of ego-boost? If there is a god, I think he's be more happy with atheists than the religious, because they use the gifts god made for them like rationality and intelligence, rather than blindly worship like a parrot repeating words.

If I think the green giant is watching me, and I feel safe and structured and become a valuable member of society, that doesn't make it any more true. So why should I deceive myself? Because its easy and makes me happy? That's the crux of your argument. Its childish, I'm sorry, its like an ostrich burying its head in the sand. And some people think that's the way to go about things, but life is complicated and its not necessarily about feeling good, but about being true to ourselves.

Answer me this one thing: pretend god doesn't exist. Now, would you go kill someone? You're not going to be banished into hell after all. If you answered no, then why wouldn't you? Because you're decent? That's where I'm coming from. You don't need a paternal father figure threatening you in order to do the right thing. We've progressed to the point where we don't need it anymore, our species has grown up. Imagine a 5 year old wishing he could move out so he could eat cookies any time he wants, because his parents restrict his sugar intake. Then imagine 20 years later, do you think he'll be eating cookies nonstop? Course not, he grew up and is able to structure his own life because he learned a lot and got a lot smarter. Humans have had many centuries to get to this point, but we've finally turned the corner, and that's why religion can't torture people any more and atheism is on the rise. It will only continue.

Ugh...you're talking to an illusion in your head when imagining how I think, it's all based on your own ignorance and prejudice. You prove the point I was making about people not educating themselves on different paths before making up their minds about religion. But I'm not ultimately here to discuss my personal choice, so I'm just encouraging you to do some reading. It's all at your fingertips. These days there are no excuses for not knowing something if you are are wondering about something.

[Deschanel]

Beyond the fine, intelligent conversation about theology, religion, God and existence..

I'd like to personally congratulate Galata for writing and polling a post that reinforces the worst fears of anti-Muslim bigots. Unless this is a sardonic take, which is really unclear. Like, fatally so.

And you can mock stupid Americans in your poll Galata, but the fact remains that Muslim and Islamic communities are deeply embedded in the civic fabric of American cities, peacefully, and it's not even an issue here like it is in Europe. Islamic communities in our cities are our friends and neighbors, and it is actually damned startling what a non-issue it is in the US, despite your prejudices. You have no idea, or refuse to believe: in America, Muslim communities are very well-integrated into the broader civic fabric, it's not an issue aside from some rare instances of prejudice. Compared to the tensions in Europe, America is a dream of integration for Muslims, and I think other Yanks around here would back me up on this.

But Europe is made of smaller, more homogenous countries, it's more complicated . Don't get the (sardonic?) idea of a "first Islamic country" of Europe. Turkey is a great country, beautiful and wonderful people and culture. But they need to get a great deal in order first to be part of the EU, alas. Don't take that personally.

[markus]

I changed my mind and decided to give my perspective on a few things you asked...being in a friendlier mood today.

If god exists, why does he demand obedience and worship? Surely the most intelligent and complex being there could ever be would not care about being worshipped, a human construct.

How about:for your own good?
Because if there exists a creator then he's created us with different needs and desirers that we try to satisfy, mostly physical and emotional, but also so called spiritual needs. Most people (even Paris Hilton when in prison) try to find something more substancial in life when those primary needs are fulfilled. But many people are bound to fill that void with fluff, useless to the person and everyone around when all things come around.
So what if those hours invested in spiritual things could be seen as visiting a good friend. You show love and respect by showing up, and he's also happy to see you. But deep inside you both know you're the recieving part. That's ok because your friend is generous and has a lot to give. He's like an oasis in a desert whose company is nourishing and refreshing, and you leave with a smile on your face, feeling stronger and ready to deal with whatever unpleasent things everyday life has in store. But not only emotionally but also intelectually, because his company is also very enlightening and he has many intresting thoughtworthy things to say about life. That IMO is what a good religion is all about. Not kneeling down in a humliating way, putting on some theatralic show with rituals, extatic crazy chanting or singing and shouting, or emptying your mind sitting for hours getting as much done as a heroinist on a good trip.

[markus]

If I think the green giant is watching me, and I feel safe and structured and become a valuable member of society, that doesn't make it any more true. So why should I deceive myself? Because its easy and makes me happy? That's the crux of your argument. Its childish, I'm sorry, its like an ostrich burying its head in the sand. And some people think that's the way to go about things, but life is complicated and its not necessarily about feeling good, but about being true to ourselves.

Answer me this one thing: pretend god doesn't exist. Now, would you go kill someone? You're not going to be banished into hell after all. If you answered no, then why wouldn't you? Because you're decent? That's where I'm coming from. You don't need a paternal father figure threatening you in order to do the right thing. We've progressed to the point where we don't need it anymore, our species has grown up. Imagine a 5 year old wishing he could move out so he could eat cookies any time he wants, because his parents restrict his sugar intake. Then imagine 20 years later, do you think he'll be eating cookies nonstop? Course not, he grew up and is able to structure his own life because he learned a lot and got a lot smarter. Humans have had many centuries to get to this point, but we've finally turned the corner, and that's why religion can't torture people any more and atheism is on the rise. It will only continue.

When you really have a good friend it matters to you what he thinks about you. It's not that your afraid he'll beat you up for doing something, but that you would see dissapointment in his eyes, knowing he's heard the rumours, that you traded in the that present he gave you for money to buy drugs with.


Some people claim they feel this way about god, I know it sounds delusional, but isn't it worth checking out? I'm working on it myself at the moment...not there yet