Big Ron

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Is racism endemic in society?

Yes
13
87%
No
2
13%
 
Total votes: 15

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Undertaker
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#31 Post by Undertaker »

madhatter88 wrote: By the way Dave, I read Robbie Earles reaction in the Evening Standard and he was very disappointed with Ron to say the least, although I did detect a slight hint of sadness that one of his closest colleagues has effectively ruined his career and repuation on the basis of one stupid moment.

Anyway whilst we're on this subject, did any of our English posters celebrate St.Georges day?
It's a strange one. But i get the impression Big Ron is one of these people who likes to hear himself.

I didn't celebrate St Georges day. I wouldn't know how to really. I've never known it to be a day of celebration unlike St Paddy's day (which i also don't celebrate but the Irish really do enjoy themselves)

Dave

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#32 Post by madhatter88 »

And on the subject of football Dave, are you dreading the possibility of Arsenal winning the title on your home ground tomorrow?

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#33 Post by Undertaker »

madhatter88 wrote:And on the subject of football Dave, are you dreading the possibility of Arsenal winning the title on your home ground tomorrow?
Actually, it wouldn't bother me much because it would give the fans even more excuse to turn their anger on the people running the club. The big game for Spurs on Sunday is the Leeds v Pompey match. If Leeds win, i fear for Tottenham. A big chance of going down.

What's happened to Luton anyway? They seem to have shot themselves in the foot. They looked on fire for 3/4 of the season. I am impressed by the striker, Howard. He seems to score all the time and he caused Grimsby all sorts of problems when your lot come here. I don't think he will be a Luton player next season.

Dave

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#34 Post by madhatter88 »

We've done well considering we've been in administrative receivership for the whole season, remember that the club was hours from being liquidated before some very clever and timely intervention by the supportes trust. The football league have not allowed us to buy any players and have limited our squad to 20, some of whom are youngsters under 18 who have never played league football before.

Given the above, we've actually done very well but injuries have caught up with us and we ran out of steam. We've also dropped 17 points this season by losing goals in the 90th minute, which has been v. frustrating

This pre-season is going to be v. important, the Football League have still to approve the proposed new owners of the club and the saga has dragged on for months. They want substantial evidence that the new people have the funding required and proper plans for relocation which is key. Shame they weren't so keen when fat boy Blobby was around last July.

Oh well, the joys of supporting Luton!

Technotrancemix

#35 Post by Technotrancemix »

What is racist is:

White man calling black man "n***er"
White man flying the St George's cross

What is not racist is:

Muslim Iraqi's burning the Union Jack
Black man calling white man "Briton"

Tell me the above ain't true cos it feels like it!!! :evil:

Lethe

#36 Post by Lethe »

I love what they say on Football365 :

How ironic that somebody who is orange can be racist.

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#37 Post by Kris »

madhatter88 wrote:The word Paki when used in the correct context is not offensive for it is just a shortening of the word Pakistani. For example, I remember Nasser Hussain, the England cricket captain using the word many a time at press conferences etc.
Really? I've never ever heard the word used in anything other than a derogatory context.

To me Lethe is right - 'Jock', 'Paddy' etc are terms that people from Scotland and Ireland respectively are happy to call themselves as nicknames because I daresay they probably invented the terms themselves (though feel free to correct me on that!). Whereas the word 'Paki' was invented by white Britons as a derogatory term for people from the subcontinent; the only time I've ever heard Asians use it is as an insult (I once walked home from school with an Asian girl and she had a row with her cousin - the P word was flying around left, right and centre; very bizarre!).

For the record I don't want to sound like I'm obsessed with political correctness because I'm not but I'm very much against racism (from all sides of course!) and I think in 2004 society should respect that certain words and phrases are unacceptable.
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#38 Post by Drico One »

Kris wrote:'Jock', 'Paddy' etc are terms that people from Scotland and Ireland respectively are happy to call themselves as nicknames because I daresay they probably invented the terms themselves (though feel free to correct me on that!).
It's all a question of context. In Ireland, if we speak of "Paddies," it is often in a self-mocking sense. For example, I might claim that some Irish guy behaving badly abroad was "Paddy the pig." So, even in Ireland, the term "Paddy" is mildly derogatory, if not offensive. However, if I was living abroad, like in the UK for example, I would not feel too comfortable being labelled a "Paddy" by strangers. Again, it's a question of context. Minorities will always be more sensitive to slightly derogatory terms - even if they are often meant in a gentle or playful sense. This has to do with history and a sense of wariness of being "under the thumb." If English friends called me Paddy, it would almost certainly be in a playful, affectionate sense. After all, I've always found English people the nicest in the world in many ways, and am well aware that they often consider us Irish as their slightly eccentric, mad cousins.

Similarly, a British guy living in Ireland might feel a pang of discomfort if his Irish neighbours referred to him as "the Brit." It's all about being a minority and feeling vulnerable in some small way, and these terms make people feel like outsiders. They may already be outsiders, and terms like this reinforce a feeling of exclusion. Whether individuals feel uncomfortable or not is irrelevant, really. People should be aware that calling somebody a "Brit" or a "Paddy" or whatever in the wrong context is POTENTIALLY, if not necessarilly discomfiting. It's a question of manners really. None of us knows what is going on in another's head, so to hear somebody like Ron Atkinson refer to Marcel Desailly as a "nigger" is disconcerting as it suggests the possibility that Atkinson is a bigot. It doesn't mean he is, but it certainly puts doubts in other people's minds. Using that term is basically ignorant and potentially racist. If that was the first term that came into his mind when he saw Desailly, then it is damning. However, I imagine he used it more in a convenient sense, rather than in a malicious sense, as his vocabularly is not particularly extensive. That may be patronising, but I think it is his only defence, really.

Like I said, I think the man is simply a victim of his own ignorance. He is of a certain background, somewhat vulgar and charismatic in turns, and obviously uneducated. I feel some sympathy for him, to be honest, as I think he's just had his limitations exposed. But there can't really be toleration for this kind of thing as it would send out the wrong signal to the real racists in society, and sadly football reflects society in this manner in having a similar proportion among its ranks.

It should also be said that there are degrees of racism related to history and oppression. Some peoples are still somehow oppressed, and labelling them will always be more offensive. For example, calling somebody a "chink" in the West when referring to an Asian person would be far more offensive than calling somebody a "Paddy." It's to do with success in a society really. An Asian is likely to feel far more vulnerable in the UK than any Irishman ever would, as the Irish are completely integrated and largely successful in the UK, whereas many Asians are not for whatever reasons. Calling a German a "Nazi" in the UK would be HUGELY offensive, for example, and rightly so. Nobody could claim the Germans weren't ultra successful, but it is the history angle here that would cause the offence. Germans are often appalled (with good reason) at UK tabloids, for example. It's all just a question of good manners, really.

Then there is the sort of casual, insidious racism that is somehow tolerated unnoticed in society. I find it shameful, for example, that a British Union Jack flag never seems to fly outside Irish hotels when flags of God knows how many other countries that have very distant relationships with us do so proudly. To me, this kind of thing is a sign of inferiority in a minority of people in a country. I'm ashamed to say a hotel flying the Union Jack is likely to have the flag burned by a small minority of murderous fascists, if not the hotel with it. THAT is racism.

Drico.
Last edited by Drico One on Sun 25 Apr 2004, 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#39 Post by Native »

Undertaker wrote:
Actually, it wouldn't bother me much because it would give the fans even more excuse to turn their anger on the people running the club. The big game for Spurs on Sunday is the Leeds v Pompey match. If Leeds win, i fear for Tottenham. A big chance of going down.


Dave
Well, you're safe on that count, Dave. Leeds looked to me like a side already down today.

Lethe

#40 Post by Lethe »

Native wrote:
Undertaker wrote:
Actually, it wouldn't bother me much because it would give the fans even more excuse to turn their anger on the people running the club. The big game for Spurs on Sunday is the Leeds v Pompey match. If Leeds win, i fear for Tottenham. A big chance of going down.


Dave
Well, you're safe on that count, Dave. Leeds looked to me like a side already down today.
Yes it's all attitude. Robbie Fowler, once the most promising striker in the country is now a fat lump with £25 million in the bank and a love for white powder.

Indicative of Leeds and the Premiership in general that they are still paying some of his wages.

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#41 Post by Undertaker »

Native wrote:
Undertaker wrote:
Actually, it wouldn't bother me much because it would give the fans even more excuse to turn their anger on the people running the club. The big game for Spurs on Sunday is the Leeds v Pompey match. If Leeds win, i fear for Tottenham. A big chance of going down.


Dave
Well, you're safe on that count, Dave. Leeds looked to me like a side already down today.
Everything at Leeds is wrong IMO. They haven't got a proper manager, i know he has his limits to what he can do but he seems to be he is way out is depth and drowning fast. That defending was god awful. He should have had the 2 central midfielders at the back and started that young lad Lennon. Michael Duberry, Caldwell and that yound striker that started were poor. Tried hard but give anyone a shirt and they would try hard. Pennant wasn't in the game at all. He should have put him up front.

It's not over yet. Manchester City look look fragile too. Spurs will give Leeds a boost today if they get hammered.

Dave

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#42 Post by Undertaker »

Jesus! A Spurs side that finally showed a bit of spirit. Well thank f*ck Jens Lehmann is a liability. Well done to Arsenal. They played some awesome stuff all season. How the hell they aren't still in the champs league considering what's left in it is unbelievable.

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#43 Post by james23_uk »

Leeds fixtures:
Bolton Wanderers Away
Charlton Athletic Home
Chelsea Away

City Fixtures:
Newcastle United Home
Middlesbrough Away
Everton Home

Cant see Leeds getting more than 4 points from their games, and City shouldnt have any problems getting the 1 draw to keep them safe. We've only lost 2 games from our last 8.
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#44 Post by Your Funny Uncle »

Yes looks like it's between us and Man City to go down, and I think unfortunately it'll be us. Due to goal difference we'd have to hope Man City loose all their games and we get at least 4 points. Currently it's hard to see either of those things happening... :(

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#45 Post by Your Funny Uncle »

james23_uk wrote:Leeds fixtures:
Bolton Wanderers Away
Charlton Athletic Home
Chelsea Away

City Fixtures:
Newcastle United Home
Middlesbrough Away
Everton Home

Cant see Leeds getting more than 4 points from their games, and City shouldnt have any problems getting the 1 draw to keep them safe. We've only lost 2 games from our last 8.
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