My apologies if this has already been covered as there's so many topics here.
Just wondering what the resident PSB experts thought of James Ford's production of Nonetheless. The boys themselves kept throwing around the word "fresh" in interviews.
I will say, James Ford's production definitely got me to sit up and recognize their previous producers and how their sound has changed from Please onward.
I definitely have my own opinions of the production of Nonetheless and "fresh" isn't one of the words I'd use. Would love to hear your thoughts and also if anyone has any inside information on how much the boys ears are involved in the production or if they just leave it in the producers hands to do right by them?
James Ford
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Danimal
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Re: James Ford
This is a fairly complicated question. I think PSB loom large in the studio, and by midway through their career at least some producers didn’t seem to exert much, if any influence. “Bilingual” comes to mind in this regard, did the producers make any difference on this album? “Bilingual” sounds self-produced all the way through.
I remember reading in “Literally” way back after the release of “Very” their former mixer, Bob Kraushaar, commented that he was constantly pushing them to strip back their mixes and make them less dense.
For “Electric” the choice of Stuart Price seemed to have a noticeable impact, though Price also commented he was extremely assertive with them in the studio and often overruled their preferences. Just listen to the difference between the “Vocal” demo and the finished track. By “Super” the difference Price made was still tangible, but less pronounced. Then by “Hotspot”, at least to my ears, their creative chemistry seemed to have run its course and in my mind this is by far the least of the Price trilogy, similar to the place David Bowie’s “Lodger” occupies in his own Berlin trilogy. By this point it’s almost as if PSB had assimilated Price and have returned to their more-or-less usual sound. “Hotspot” really falls apart with the inclusion of the final three songs, which don’t suit the album at all and we know they had more appropriate material prepared at the time, which Price was fully aware of. “An open mind” and “Decide” would have worked much, much better than “Only the dark”, “Burning the heather”, and “Wedding in Berlin.” Price produced versions of “I will fall” or even “The lost room” would have fit as well.
When they announced James Ford as the producer of “Nonetheless” I was less than thrilled as I wasn’t a fan of Depeche Mode “Spirit”, which he also produced. Having said that, upon hearing the finished “Nonetheless” album it was a revelation. Ford did indeed simplify their sound and “Nonetheless” is a smooth listen. Over the years PSB albums have become increasingly harsh sounding, but in spite of the massive amounts of compression they use in the mastering process, “Nonetheless” is their most pleasant sounding album since perhaps “Behavior.” As Kraushaar suggested all those decades ago, the mixes are much less complicated than usual and the songs mostly benefit from it. It will be interesting to hear the difference between the “Nonetheless” demos and the finished album when they are released next month. I strongly suspect there will be a large contingent of fans who prefer the demos as they will likely sound more like the PSB we’ve grown accustomed to, with more going on sonically within the tracks.
Because PSB have been perfecting their craft for so long and are so expert at it, I think it takes a particularly strong, opinionated, and talented producer to truly have a significant impact on the final product.
I remember reading in “Literally” way back after the release of “Very” their former mixer, Bob Kraushaar, commented that he was constantly pushing them to strip back their mixes and make them less dense.
For “Electric” the choice of Stuart Price seemed to have a noticeable impact, though Price also commented he was extremely assertive with them in the studio and often overruled their preferences. Just listen to the difference between the “Vocal” demo and the finished track. By “Super” the difference Price made was still tangible, but less pronounced. Then by “Hotspot”, at least to my ears, their creative chemistry seemed to have run its course and in my mind this is by far the least of the Price trilogy, similar to the place David Bowie’s “Lodger” occupies in his own Berlin trilogy. By this point it’s almost as if PSB had assimilated Price and have returned to their more-or-less usual sound. “Hotspot” really falls apart with the inclusion of the final three songs, which don’t suit the album at all and we know they had more appropriate material prepared at the time, which Price was fully aware of. “An open mind” and “Decide” would have worked much, much better than “Only the dark”, “Burning the heather”, and “Wedding in Berlin.” Price produced versions of “I will fall” or even “The lost room” would have fit as well.
When they announced James Ford as the producer of “Nonetheless” I was less than thrilled as I wasn’t a fan of Depeche Mode “Spirit”, which he also produced. Having said that, upon hearing the finished “Nonetheless” album it was a revelation. Ford did indeed simplify their sound and “Nonetheless” is a smooth listen. Over the years PSB albums have become increasingly harsh sounding, but in spite of the massive amounts of compression they use in the mastering process, “Nonetheless” is their most pleasant sounding album since perhaps “Behavior.” As Kraushaar suggested all those decades ago, the mixes are much less complicated than usual and the songs mostly benefit from it. It will be interesting to hear the difference between the “Nonetheless” demos and the finished album when they are released next month. I strongly suspect there will be a large contingent of fans who prefer the demos as they will likely sound more like the PSB we’ve grown accustomed to, with more going on sonically within the tracks.
Because PSB have been perfecting their craft for so long and are so expert at it, I think it takes a particularly strong, opinionated, and talented producer to truly have a significant impact on the final product.
Last edited by Danimal on Mon 28 Oct 2024, 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Danimal
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Re: James Ford
It's in the song
First and foremost, the album is what it is because of the songs. Nonetheless seems to be a collection that people relate to.
Myself, I love Hotpot and Elysium as I do Nonetheless. To me those albums are similar - they cover similar whimsies and romantasisms. They each lean into the producer to bring out colour and depth in the songs.
Of the three, Elysium production is hard to beat for two reasons - Neil's vocals are captured very richly, and sonically the production has a lot of deeper timbre, while Nonetheless seems a little scratchy with both in places.
Loneliness is a strong track, but weirdly I find it a jarring start to the album. Something about the opening lines don't sit right with me in the way they are recorded, and the chorus is shouty rather than melodic. Similarly, the chorus to Dancing Star feels a little abrasive - more time in production might of come up with something more tuneful? Narcissist, imo, could have learned more towards the gloomy tone and guitar of Years To Leave (as it is it's fine, but maybe a little too on the uptempo side?)
I feel with Price they could be more hands off (at times), but Ford would have benefited from a second pass with the boys.
First and foremost, the album is what it is because of the songs. Nonetheless seems to be a collection that people relate to.
Myself, I love Hotpot and Elysium as I do Nonetheless. To me those albums are similar - they cover similar whimsies and romantasisms. They each lean into the producer to bring out colour and depth in the songs.
Of the three, Elysium production is hard to beat for two reasons - Neil's vocals are captured very richly, and sonically the production has a lot of deeper timbre, while Nonetheless seems a little scratchy with both in places.
Loneliness is a strong track, but weirdly I find it a jarring start to the album. Something about the opening lines don't sit right with me in the way they are recorded, and the chorus is shouty rather than melodic. Similarly, the chorus to Dancing Star feels a little abrasive - more time in production might of come up with something more tuneful? Narcissist, imo, could have learned more towards the gloomy tone and guitar of Years To Leave (as it is it's fine, but maybe a little too on the uptempo side?)
I feel with Price they could be more hands off (at times), but Ford would have benefited from a second pass with the boys.
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g_m
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Re: James Ford
This is a very interesting subject and I’m glad it’s been brought up. I didn’t really know anything about James Ford’s production work prior to this. Being a synth/dance head I had no interest in Arctic Monkeys, Jessie Ware etc and I knew him mainly from Simian Mobile Disco and producing Depeche Mode’s Memento Mori which made me excited for Nonetheless, as MM was DM’s best album in years.
As jasonjohn has said – ‘it’s in the song’ and this is evident with DM as Ford produced Spirit which wasn’t one of their best… I guess the old phrase ‘you can’t polish a turd’ comes to mind.
Anyway, back to PSB. For me personally, I find Nonetheless way too over-produced - from the music to the vocals to the artwork. It’s all very polished and luxurious. I get they wanted a warm sounding album but parts of Nonetheless are verging on easy-listening – New London Boy, New Bohemia, The Secret Of Happiness – and after following PSB religiously for knocking on 37 years that is something I thought I’d never ever say.
For PSB to use the term 'fresh' is a bit of a puzzle as that is one word I wouldn't use to describe this album. 'Fresh' is Actually to Introspective to Behaviour. It's hard to believe the progression going on there in the space of just three years!
I was very underwhelmed when I first listened to the album but after hearing the instrumentals I think I realised what my problem with it is – the vocals. Whether or not I don’t get on with the production I’ve no idea but I appreciate the album more just for the music. Again, something I thought I’d never say when it comes to PSB.
A couple of examples - the spoken word intro to Dancing Star makes me want to skip the entire track before it’s even got going, which is a shame as it’s a great song. The “booooy” in New London Boy at 3:25. Oh my word. But that might be the key change as well. Either way, bang, skip.
Like people have said, the demos that are out in a few weeks will be very interesting. After Dog highlighted Neil’s comment about their initial concerns over James Ford’s production, you kind of feel that although they say they’re happy with it, maybe they’re not 100% and they want their originals to be out there. Could this be PSB’s ‘Let It Be’?
As jasonjohn has said – ‘it’s in the song’ and this is evident with DM as Ford produced Spirit which wasn’t one of their best… I guess the old phrase ‘you can’t polish a turd’ comes to mind.
Anyway, back to PSB. For me personally, I find Nonetheless way too over-produced - from the music to the vocals to the artwork. It’s all very polished and luxurious. I get they wanted a warm sounding album but parts of Nonetheless are verging on easy-listening – New London Boy, New Bohemia, The Secret Of Happiness – and after following PSB religiously for knocking on 37 years that is something I thought I’d never ever say.
For PSB to use the term 'fresh' is a bit of a puzzle as that is one word I wouldn't use to describe this album. 'Fresh' is Actually to Introspective to Behaviour. It's hard to believe the progression going on there in the space of just three years!
I was very underwhelmed when I first listened to the album but after hearing the instrumentals I think I realised what my problem with it is – the vocals. Whether or not I don’t get on with the production I’ve no idea but I appreciate the album more just for the music. Again, something I thought I’d never say when it comes to PSB.
A couple of examples - the spoken word intro to Dancing Star makes me want to skip the entire track before it’s even got going, which is a shame as it’s a great song. The “booooy” in New London Boy at 3:25. Oh my word. But that might be the key change as well. Either way, bang, skip.
Like people have said, the demos that are out in a few weeks will be very interesting. After Dog highlighted Neil’s comment about their initial concerns over James Ford’s production, you kind of feel that although they say they’re happy with it, maybe they’re not 100% and they want their originals to be out there. Could this be PSB’s ‘Let It Be’?
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Parkol
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Re: James Ford
James Ford has done a wonderful job. The sound is clear and transparent. A tight sound, without the compression that Price is so fond of. The arrangements are all balanced, there is no mush like on Very. The album is truly a breathless listen. I don't often listen to vinyl from Price's trilogy, because even if they wrote in Berlin or London, the sound is muddy and overcompressed.
Ford's sound is wide, you can hear the nuances, the accents are right. You can feel the highest level.
I would like him to continue producing their albums.
The only thing I would like to say is that some of the arrangements are a bit flat without any unexpected moments, any mood changes like PSB like.
Love is the law - there you could ask for some mood change in the middle or in the end, but everything is flat and boring there, though the song is beautiful.
Great example about New Boy - there saxophone solo pulls out the song perfectly. In Bohemia I would also like new instruments in the middle of the track, or a more varied ending. Although the intro and ending are very beautiful.
Most importantly, the album is solid and well thought out. The initial base is flawless. As in illustration, architecture, sculpture, music - if the composition is bad from the beginning, no amount of embellishment will not draw out the weak idea. That's why PSB has beautiful music and it's hard to spoil it.
James understood that and showed Peto's music in all its glory.
The Pets have the best producers:
1 Trevor Horn
2 James Ford
3 A German producer with an unpronounceable name.
4 Xenomania
Ford's sound is wide, you can hear the nuances, the accents are right. You can feel the highest level.
I would like him to continue producing their albums.
The only thing I would like to say is that some of the arrangements are a bit flat without any unexpected moments, any mood changes like PSB like.
Love is the law - there you could ask for some mood change in the middle or in the end, but everything is flat and boring there, though the song is beautiful.
Great example about New Boy - there saxophone solo pulls out the song perfectly. In Bohemia I would also like new instruments in the middle of the track, or a more varied ending. Although the intro and ending are very beautiful.
Most importantly, the album is solid and well thought out. The initial base is flawless. As in illustration, architecture, sculpture, music - if the composition is bad from the beginning, no amount of embellishment will not draw out the weak idea. That's why PSB has beautiful music and it's hard to spoil it.
James understood that and showed Peto's music in all its glory.
The Pets have the best producers:
1 Trevor Horn
2 James Ford
3 A German producer with an unpronounceable name.
4 Xenomania
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Future Lover
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Re: James Ford
I will be totally honest, ever since his work with Jessie Ware, I was craving this, and manifesting it for ages. But I am slightly underwhelmed by the sound of the album, since I feel the electronic elements are rather rudimentary and basic. The orchestral arrangements and mixing is excellent, but the electronic side of things reminds me more of "Elysium" and how Andrew Dawson didn't seem to do much to their demos. If I ever had the talent and got the chance to produce them... I'd start with removing their production first. The songwriting is excellent, but that's the thing with legends, you don't want egos to be hurt! "Yes" is an album with opposite issues, where the production is stellar, yet the songwriting is sometimes subpar.
Re: James Ford
The takes so far have been interesting - I can get behind a lot of them, particularly what jasonjohn is saying.
The vocals in Nonetheless to me are the most problematic part. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I mentioned it before that they sounded full of echo and didn't have the richness I've heard from Neil's vocals before. The excellent B-sides this time are testimony to that as I find the vocals on those much more accessible.
I can't help feeling we're going to hear an entirely different album with the demos, and I also have a sneaking suspicion I'll prefer it over the James Ford production. Cue everyone creating their own version of Nonetheless matching up their preferred versions to make a new whole.
The vocals in Nonetheless to me are the most problematic part. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I mentioned it before that they sounded full of echo and didn't have the richness I've heard from Neil's vocals before. The excellent B-sides this time are testimony to that as I find the vocals on those much more accessible.
I can't help feeling we're going to hear an entirely different album with the demos, and I also have a sneaking suspicion I'll prefer it over the James Ford production. Cue everyone creating their own version of Nonetheless matching up their preferred versions to make a new whole.
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One of the crowd
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Re: James Ford
Couldn’t give a shit who produced it
If I like what I hear, and I do, that’s what counts.
If I like what I hear, and I do, that’s what counts.
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RevAaron
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Re: James Ford
Glad to see I wasn't the only one who didn't like DM Spirit (I also can't listen to Delta Machine, Memento Mori is okay).
Seems like lots of interpretations of the sound production on this. Maybe it's my ears as I'm getting on, but Hotspot and Nonetheless sound the opposite of fresh, dynamic or spacious. If you go from Actually or Introspective to Nonetheless... to me the difference is massive and not in a way I'd like.
I'm usually more like One of the crowd in that I don't really care who produces it as they always sound good but this is the first time, to me, their sound didn't really sound like them. There's a quality missing. However, I also recognize that this album was made during Covid when they weren't together in the same place so that likely has something to do with it.
Seems like lots of interpretations of the sound production on this. Maybe it's my ears as I'm getting on, but Hotspot and Nonetheless sound the opposite of fresh, dynamic or spacious. If you go from Actually or Introspective to Nonetheless... to me the difference is massive and not in a way I'd like.
I'm usually more like One of the crowd in that I don't really care who produces it as they always sound good but this is the first time, to me, their sound didn't really sound like them. There's a quality missing. However, I also recognize that this album was made during Covid when they weren't together in the same place so that likely has something to do with it.
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BimboDuncan
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Re: James Ford
I could write a LOT about this as me and a few other local PetHeads have discussed it at length.
My opinion - being a lifelong fan who bought Please the month it came out - is that Nonetheless is their best produced album since Very. James Ford has found new depths in their sound. The bass in the chorus of New London Boy is probably the deepest lowest fullest bass sound of any PSB song.
It's also deceptively simple. Yes the sound is clear and crisp and uncomplicated - but if you listen really carefully on good quality headphones to a song over and over you will start to hear all sorts of different instruments, and especially vocal harmonies, buried very low in the mix. There's a really beautiful high backing vocal line when Neil sings "I'll go all the way" right at the end of the song which I didn't hear until last week. Actually - there's loads of gorgeous backing vocals on that song buried very low in the mix.
Worth getting hold of the instrumentals as they reveal so much more. James Ford's genius is that he's taken the essence of the early Stephen Hague/Julian Mendelsohn years and updated them to sound like a record for 2024. Apart, possibly, from Dancing Star which is obviously a 'pastiche' of the Please sound. But even that is brought up to date.
I think the whole album is immaculately produced.
My opinion - being a lifelong fan who bought Please the month it came out - is that Nonetheless is their best produced album since Very. James Ford has found new depths in their sound. The bass in the chorus of New London Boy is probably the deepest lowest fullest bass sound of any PSB song.
It's also deceptively simple. Yes the sound is clear and crisp and uncomplicated - but if you listen really carefully on good quality headphones to a song over and over you will start to hear all sorts of different instruments, and especially vocal harmonies, buried very low in the mix. There's a really beautiful high backing vocal line when Neil sings "I'll go all the way" right at the end of the song which I didn't hear until last week. Actually - there's loads of gorgeous backing vocals on that song buried very low in the mix.
Worth getting hold of the instrumentals as they reveal so much more. James Ford's genius is that he's taken the essence of the early Stephen Hague/Julian Mendelsohn years and updated them to sound like a record for 2024. Apart, possibly, from Dancing Star which is obviously a 'pastiche' of the Please sound. But even that is brought up to date.
I think the whole album is immaculately produced.
We’re different from the others.
No one understands us here.
Imagine how free we will be,
If we disappear?
No one understands us here.
Imagine how free we will be,
If we disappear?
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RevAaron
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Re: James Ford
Time to get my ears checked then. Everything you've said here with the exception of Very being well produced is the exact opposite of my feelings on this album.BimboDuncan wrote: Mon 28 Oct 2024, 10:59 pm I could write a LOT about this as me and a few other local PetHeads have discussed it at length.
My opinion - being a lifelong fan who bought Please the month it came out - is that Nonetheless is their best produced album since Very. James Ford has found new depths in their sound. The bass in the chorus of New London Boy is probably the deepest lowest fullest bass sound of any PSB song.
It's also deceptively simple. Yes the sound is clear and crisp and uncomplicated - but if you listen really carefully on good quality headphones to a song over and over you will start to hear all sorts of different instruments, and especially vocal harmonies, buried very low in the mix. There's a really beautiful high backing vocal line when Neil sings "I'll go all the way" right at the end of the song which I didn't hear until last week. Actually - there's loads of gorgeous backing vocals on that song buried very low in the mix.
Worth getting hold of the instrumentals as they reveal so much more. James Ford's genius is that he's taken the essence of the early Stephen Hague/Julian Mendelsohn years and updated them to sound like a record for 2024. Apart, possibly, from Dancing Star which is obviously a 'pastiche' of the Please sound. But even that is brought up to date.
I think the whole album is immaculately produced.
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BimboDuncan
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Thu 30 Oct 2003, 11:29 am
Re: James Ford
But isn't it great that we can have such differing views on the same album? I find that more than many enduring pop acts, there's a wide range of differing opinions across an incredibly passionate fanbase. Also N&C are willing to experiment with sounds and musical styles so inevitably some will appeal more than others (The Secret of Happiness' seemingly being a current one that splits fans down the middle)
I can't listen to most of Elysium or Release - but I have fan friends who count those as their favourite albums!
I can't listen to most of Elysium or Release - but I have fan friends who count those as their favourite albums!
We’re different from the others.
No one understands us here.
Imagine how free we will be,
If we disappear?
No one understands us here.
Imagine how free we will be,
If we disappear?
Re: James Ford
For me, there have only been 2 albums since Very where the boys have married up the near perfect set of songs with the perfect producer for them, and that is Stuart Price with Electric, and James Ford with Nonetheless.
I have listened to Electric this evening for the first time in a while, and I really don't think we can underestimate what Price did to turn the boys fortunes around with this album. Axis, Fluorescent, Bourgeois, Thursday and Vocal are up there with their finest work.
I have listened to Electric this evening for the first time in a while, and I really don't think we can underestimate what Price did to turn the boys fortunes around with this album. Axis, Fluorescent, Bourgeois, Thursday and Vocal are up there with their finest work.
Re: James Ford
Electric is the greatest PSB statement of the 21st century. It’s not even close.
The pale kid that hides in the attic behind his PC...