Will It Be Tories.....Will It Be Labour.....

[Your Funny Uncle]

Sorry to change the topic slightly, but that might not actually be true if a recent scientific paper is to be believed. I'll see if I can find it online somewhere.

Also, did anyone else read about the recent findings that pretty much prove that Neanderthal man interbred with Homo Sapiens, and all Europeans, Middle Easterns and Asians have their DNA. People from Central and Southern Africa do not.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/s ... 118573.ece

I've never heard any suggestion that all humans didn't come from Africa. As I understand it the disagreements are over whether we are all descended from the same wave of colonisers or if there were multiple instances of human populations leaving the continent and surviving. If there's a new theory I'd like to see it.

Neanderthals also originally came from Africa but they left earlier than we did.

[redsock]

Sorry to change the topic slightly, but that might not actually be true if a recent scientific paper is to be believed. I'll see if I can find it online somewhere.

Also, did anyone else read about the recent findings that pretty much prove that Neanderthal man interbred with Homo Sapiens, and all Europeans, Middle Easterns and Asians have their DNA. People from Central and Southern Africa do not.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/s ... 118573.ece

I've never heard any suggestion that all humans didn't come from Africa. As I understand it the disagreements are over whether we are all descended from the same wave of colonisers or if there were multiple instances of human populations leaving the continent and surviving. If there's a new theory I'd like to see it.

Neanderthals also originally came from Africa but they left earlier than we did.

Yeah, I know that matey, I'm absolutely fascinated by these theories of evolution too. It was a paper by a Swedish professor if I remember correctly. It was pretty far out and a bit whacky, but made very good reading.

I didn't want to hijack this thread by the way. Will PM you the details of the paper when I find it Rob.

[StevePSB]

Rumour abounds that VAT will rise to 20%. I've been saying that to anyone who'll listen for weeks, but no-one listened and now they're pretending they don't mind because they know they've helped to let the thieving Tories back in. It'd be the first of a no doubt long list of punishments for those least likely to be able to afford it, I hope when it happens all Tory voters bend over and accept the shafting from on high with a smile on their face.

This year is now the third year in a row I haven't had a pay rise and my wages are already in what I'd class as a 'low' category. Everything has gone up in price these last couple of years, everything will become more expensive again if VAT does go up, and of course, you can add another 3p to a litre of petrol/diesel too (which will also then have anther ironic knock on effect on shop prices).

I really wish I had the skills to be able get out of the country at the moment...


StevePSB

[Danny C]

Rumour abounds that VAT will rise to 20%. I've been saying that to anyone who'll listen for weeks, but no-one listened and now they're pretending they don't mind because they know they've helped to let the thieving Tories back in. It'd be the first of a no doubt long list of punishments for those least likely to be able to afford it, I hope when it happens all Tory voters bend over and accept the shafting from on high with a smile on their face.

This year is now the third year in a row I haven't had a pay rise and my wages are already in what I'd class as a 'low' category.

You'll be looking forward to the lowest income tax bracket being raised to £10,000, then...

[james23_uk]

Rumour abounds that VAT will rise to 20%. I've been saying that to anyone who'll listen for weeks, but no-one listened and now they're pretending they don't mind because they know they've helped to let the thieving Tories back in.

StevePSB

Surely 20% VAT was pretty much guaranteed which ever party held power? I know that my company has been preparing for it since January.

[StevePSB]

Forgive me if I am relaying incorrect information, but I am pretty sure that before the election Labour said they wouldn't hike VAT, but the Tories said they had 'no plans' - ie: they wouldn't commit either way.


StevePSB

[james23_uk]

Forgive me if I am relaying incorrect information, but I am pretty sure that before the election Labour said they wouldn't hike VAT, but the Tories said they had 'no plans' - ie: they wouldn't commit either way.


StevePSB

Maybe we were just all assuming Gordon had no chance of getting in

[Patrick Bateman]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 127819.ece

[Drico One]

VAT is a classic regressive tax because it takes no account of anybody's ability to pay.

It's a good thing that 36% of UK voters own gated mansions, because there are some deliciously savage cuts on the way for everybody else:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 127709.ece

I particularly love these two beauts: "Regrettably, that first budget will also have to include tax increases and there is a right way and a wrong way of doing this. Rarely has the taxpaying public been better set up for a Vat rise." and "A Vat rise may have to be accepted, but the solution to Britain’s crisis lies in cutting unnecessary public expenditure — of which there is far too much — and not penalising the wealth creators."

The Gordon Gecko school of economics: protect the "wealth creators". i.e., rich toffs and penalise the plebs. Oh, and I hope nobody here is on the minimum wage. I'd be buying my 62" plasma TV and booking that second foreign holiday now because it's only a matter of time before your ill-gotten gains will have to be eliminated "in the national interest" so that Tristram can get the education he needs to rightfully run the country in a few years to protect the next generation of "wealth creators" from grasping uppity plebeians like yourself.

Drico.

[Danny C]

VAT is a classic regressive tax because it takes no account of anybody's ability to pay.

No, it takes account of someone's ability to buy. The more you buy, the more VAT you pay.

I'm not saying a VAT rise is the answer to the total mess Labour left behind, but let's not pretend that this tax disproportionately hits the poor.

[Flaffer]

Forgive me if I am relaying incorrect information, but I am pretty sure that before the election Labour said they wouldn't hike VAT, but the Tories said they had 'no plans' - ie: they wouldn't commit either way.


StevePSB

Labour wouldn't increase an easily visible tax, they would just raise hidden taxes as they have done for years. Seems strange for you to go in about not receiving a raise for three years, a period when labour were in power. Still suppose it was all the Tories doing. VAT, or similar, will have to be raised because of the hole we are in, largely due to Labours financial mismanagement, it seems amazing people are too blinkered to see that

[Flaffer]

Drico, whether you like it or not there is far too much wasted public expenditure, thanks no in no small part to Labours love of bureaucracy and desire to keep the unions on side and uncontrolled benefits culture. Centralised government costs a lot of money and inefficient targeting of funds was one of the major problems of the last administration, the spend, spend, spend mentality (both from the govt. and many in general population) was based on the idea the good times would go on and on, they didn't hence the shit were in now. VAT is not a targeted tax on the poor either, indeed its more egalitarian - you buy a more expensive product you contribute more to the coffers on inland revenue. If one was to look at the demographics of people who smoke you could argue Labour has punished them far more with tax rises, Similarly increased fuel tax tends to hit the poorest in society who pay the same no matter the value of the vehicle (consumption/fuel efficiency aside), indeed Labours regressive car tax punishes many of the poorest in society who own older less efficient cars and cannot afford to upgrade to a Prius on a whim

[Patrick Bateman]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 128665.ece

[Drico One]

VAT is a classic regressive tax because it takes no account of anybody's ability to pay.

No, it takes account of someone's ability to buy. The more you buy, the more VAT you pay. I'm not saying a VAT rise is the answer to the total mess Labour left behind, but let's not pretend that this tax disproportionately hits the poor.

It depends on what's excluded. I'll declare an interest up front before I put everybody to sleep. I've a degree in economics for my sins so apologies if I'm more tedious than usual.

WARNING: May contain academic windbaggery. Discretion advised.

In theory, VAT is a regressive tax because the poor pay more as a percentage of their income than the rich. That's disproportionate. In practice, the degree of disproportionality depends on whether VAT is levied on essential goods like food, clothing, etc., or not. According to Engel's law, as income rises, the proportion of a person's income spent on food falls, even if actual expenditure on food rises. Therefore, since the income elasticity of demand of food is usually less than 1, it tends to take up a higher percentage of the budget of a person or family with a lower income.

So, VAT on essentials is regressive. I haven't followed the minutiae of UK VAT policy, but are essentials part of the VAT regime or are they excluded? You guys will know that better than I will, though I suspect most of the essentials I'm referring to are zero-rated, making a rise less regressive than my theoretical waffle pre-supposes. Applying it to groceries would be savagely regressive, though, but I doubt the Lib Dems would stand for that.

Drico.

PS Lads (Danny and Uncle), what are you most happy/unhappy about in the new coalition? I don't think the Lib Dems had much choice but to go into full coalition, but I'm interested to know what you want to see from it for it to be worthwhile.

[StevePSB]

Labour wouldn't increase an easily visible tax, they would just raise hidden taxes as they have done for years. Seems strange for you to go in about not receiving a raise for three years, a period when labour were in power. Still suppose it was all the Tories doing. VAT, or similar, will have to be raised because of the hole we are in, largely due to Labours financial mismanagement, it seems amazing people are too blinkered to see that

What do people not understand about a *global* recession? Is that all Labour's fault too?


StevePSB