"Drinking tea like Tony Benn"

[Danny C]

You are free to have your own opinion and we will certainly not agree on this.

No, we won't, because our approaches are totally at odds with each other.

You begin with a proposition - that immigration is causing problems - and seek evidence to justify it, ignoring any and all evidence which contradicts your preconceptions.

Whereas I begin by looking at the evidence, and base my opinion on that. The scientific approach.

This is why it is truly pointless arguing with people like you. Your opinion is rooted in blind faith, and is completely impervious to facts.

[JSDOUVRES]

You are free to have your own opinion and we will certainly not agree on this.

No, we won't, because our approaches are totally at odds with each other.

You begin with a proposition - that immigration is causing problems - and seek evidence to justify it, ignoring any and all evidence which contradicts your preconceptions.

Whereas I begin by looking at the evidence, and base my opinion on that. The scientific approach.

This is why it is truly pointless arguing with people like you. Your opinion is rooted in blind faith, and is completely impervious to facts.

The main problem I have with that is that your apparent "evidence" and "facts" are not worth the paper they are written on, facts that are purposely made to miss out important information and stats in order to back up views held by people like you. And that is a "fact".

But fine, if you are telling me that you have the facts that say that Britain is not overcrowded and has the housing, schools and other public services to cope then that's fine, but I have not seen one bit of apparent fact from you to back that up, or am I wrong? And you fail to answer many of the questions I have previously asked, but that's OK, I'm sure scientific "fact" will back you up on it somewhere? The funniest thing about most of this is that the government has admitted on many occasions that in fact it has no idea of the numbers that are here, which makes me wonder quite where your fact's actually come from. But I do like the way numbers and facts are manipulated, it is clever but people are seeing through it. Why do you think so many people want out of Europe?

One fact though is that Britain is full, nobody can dispute that but we wouldn't want to control our borders now would we, that would be far too sensible and unscientific.

Did you read the Migrant watch link, or was it not "scientific" enough for you?

And as you do like facts, lets not forget that since 2010 in the polls taken about whether or not people want to leave Europe have been won 32 to 2 in favour of leaving and will continue that way no doubt. Or do you dispute that? Seems that quite a lot of people like me are ignoring the apparent "scientific evidence" that you talk about. I would actually say that their votes are based mainly on their own experiences and not made up "facts" which have been made to please people like you of course or though you are far to ignorant no doubt to ever admit that...

[JSDOUVRES]

Do your "facts" and "scientific figures" include data such as this Danny C:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... isons.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/446108 ... -prisoners

[raggatwin]

Can we agree to disagree......this thread is draining.....

[JSDOUVRES]

We can, but the main thing people cannot deny is that fact that Britain is full and nobody can doubt that which is actually what this argument is about at the end of the day.

[Danny C]

The main problem I have with that is that your apparent "evidence" and "facts" are not worth the paper they are written on...

Perhaps you would like to put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate the shortcomings of (say) the aforementioned University College London study?

http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_upl ... _22_13.pdf

I'm sure we're all dying to see you dismantle the evidence put forward by expert professors at one of the world's top universities.

If not, I will merely thank you for proving my point so thoroughly.

[JSDOUVRES]

The main problem I have with that is that your apparent "evidence" and "facts" are not worth the paper they are written on...

Perhaps you would like to put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate the shortcomings of (say) the aforementioned University College London study?

http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_upl ... _22_13.pdf

I'm sure we're all dying to see you dismantle the evidence put forward by expert professors at one of the world's top universities.

If not, I will merely thank you for proving my point so thoroughly.

I like the part on page 2 "We provide estimates" I thought this was fact? Funny too that it was put together by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini. Says it all really.

I go by this one http://www.migrationwatchuk.co.uk/ "We are an independent, voluntary, non political body which is concerned about the present scale of immigration into the UK". Not some government funded study.

And at the end of the day like I said before since 2010 32 of the the 35 polls vote to leave Europe. People are voting this way because they are seeing their communities flooded and changing and people clearly do not want that. I do not think people like you either care about that or think it is not important but it certainly is to the people that live in these places. It is not even necessarily political, people don't like what they are seeing and they have a very good point and deserve to be heard, so hard worker or not (and I agree that most are, like most Brits too of course) the huge numbers are the problem, although you still have not answered my question as to if you believe we have the space, homes and public services to cope. Have they not done a study on that? Or is it not relevant to you whereas it certainly is to people who are seeing their communities change day by day and are becoming sick and tired of it. And I have seen it many times myself and it is not right or normal and is not just about hard workers having rights to be here.

As for proving your point so thoroughly, erm I think you are pretty much alone there as there has not been a word to prove any point you have made. If you stick by an obviously migrant friendly study then so be it, I'd love to know the information left out or seen as not relevant. Like the prison numbers and costs for example?

[JSDOUVRES]

The main problem I have with that is that your apparent "evidence" and "facts" are not worth the paper they are written on...

Perhaps you would like to put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate the shortcomings of (say) the aforementioned University College London study?

http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_upl ... _22_13.pdf

I'm sure we're all dying to see you dismantle the evidence put forward by expert professors at one of the world's top universities.

If not, I will merely thank you for proving my point so thoroughly.

Found this about your amazing study: "The existing estimates of the fiscal impact of immigration in the UK are few and limited because of a lack of data and accurate information about a wide range of important factors. For this and other reasons, a significant number of assumptions must be made in order to estimate the fiscal effects of immigration, and results tend to change based on these assumptions".

I thought this was based on fact? Like I said, not worth the paper it was written on, no matter where or by whom it was put together.

[JSDOUVRES]

Fantastic debate and some very interesting points, something else Danny C about your study that you never mentioned, work based benefits are not included in it (housing benefit, child benefits, tax breaks etc.) which would make a massive difference to the "estimated" results.

One thing is clear in that we do not need Europe, we are powerful enough to survive by ourselves and make our choices and laws etc. Why is it that people are happy to have given power away to people that are unelected and do not have Britain's best interests at heart?

55 million pounds a day just to be part of the Union, absolutely crazy, how can anybody agree with that?

Well done Nigel, fantastic once again.

Oh and as for immigration, I totally agree that we should have the right to choose who comes in based on our needs for qualified workers, too many unskilled workers are not the way forward and that is undeniable. I would much rather have closer ties with countries such as New Zealand and Australia and even perhaps the USA when it comes to immigration and without doubt most Brits would agree with that too. Not Danny C though who believes that unrestricted low skilled workers from Eastern Europe have some divine right to be here, quite how I have absolutely no idea and if that is sustainable my name is Mickey mouse.

[JSDOUVRES]

The Press Association report that a YouGov poll of 1,003 voters, suggests 57% thought that Nigel Farage had performed best in this evening's LBC debate and 36% Nick Clegg.

Need I say more?

[Danny C]

Funny too that it was put together by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini. Says it all really.

Yes, it says that the cream of European academia want to live and work in this country because this country has several of the best universities on the planet, and how lucky we are to have people like that here.

Not enough to stop you casting aspersions on their work, of course, armed with nothing more than tabloid gobshitery.

You should totally email Professors Dustmann and Frattini with your "considered" thoughts about their study. Please do post their response, which is guaranteed to be classic.

Not Danny C though who believes that unrestricted low skilled workers from Eastern Europe have some divine right to be here, quite how I have absolutely no idea and if that is sustainable my name is Mickey mouse.

I don't believe in mythical beings, so ascribing a belief in "divine right" to me is obviously fallacious.

What those people have is a legal right to live here, just like the 1.5m Brits who have emigrated to continental Europe have a legal right to live there.

Of course, you're the one who believes in divine right - you believe you have a divine right to live here which should be denied to other people.

How lucky for you that the people who lived here when your ancestors emigrated to these islands didn't have your mentality.

It's a truly wonderful feeling to be able to visit other European countries, knowing I can come and go freely as I please. A pox on everyone who wants to jeopardise my freedom.

[Patrick Bateman]

Yes, it says that the cream of European academia want to live and work in this country because this country has several of the best universities on the planet, and how lucky we are to have people like that here.

Not enough to stop you casting aspersions on their work, of course, armed with nothing more than tabloid gobshitery.

You should totally email Professors Dustmann and Frattini with your "considered" thoughts about their study. Please do post their response, which is guaranteed to be classic.

I don't believe in mythical beings, so ascribing a belief in "divine right" to me is obviously fallacious.

What those people have is a legal right to live here, just like the 1.5m Brits who have emigrated to continental Europe have a legal right to live there.

Of course, you're the one who believes in divine right - you believe you have a divine right to live here which should be denied to other people.

How lucky for you that the people who lived here when your ancestors emigrated to these islands didn't have your mentality.

It's a truly wonderful feeling to be able to visit other European countries, knowing I can come and go freely as I please. A pox on everyone who wants to jeopardise my freedom.

Funny how you celebrate freedom whilst also highlighting the importance of people's 'legal rights'.

Like most champagne socialists/middle class liberals, freedom is solely defined on your own (selfish) terms. Freedom to do what one desires.....so long as you are protected from the possible negative ramifications of others' inherent freedoms. Officer! Seize that ruffian!

I presume that the whole world is entitled to come and go freely through your front door as and when they please. Is the key under the mat?

[Patrick Bateman]

[Andie]

I now declare this thread "Broken Britain: Episode III - Revenge of the Free Speech". Who agrees?

I'm enjoying it. It's very interesting to read opinions about the country I once lived in.

[JSDOUVRES]

Funny too that it was put together by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini. Says it all really.

Yes, it says that the cream of European academia want to live and work in this country because this country has several of the best universities on the planet, and how lucky we are to have people like that here.

Not enough to stop you casting aspersions on their work, of course, armed with nothing more than tabloid gobshitery.

You should totally email Professors Dustmann and Frattini with your "considered" thoughts about their study. Please do post their response, which is guaranteed to be classic.

Not Danny C though who believes that unrestricted low skilled workers from Eastern Europe have some divine right to be here, quite how I have absolutely no idea and if that is sustainable my name is Mickey mouse.

I don't believe in mythical beings, so ascribing a belief in "divine right" to me is obviously fallacious.

What those people have is a legal right to live here, just like the 1.5m Brits who have emigrated to continental Europe have a legal right to live there.

Of course, you're the one who believes in divine right - you believe you have a divine right to live here which should be denied to other people.

How lucky for you that the people who lived here when your ancestors emigrated to these islands didn't have your mentality.

It's a truly wonderful feeling to be able to visit other European countries, knowing I can come and go freely as I please. A pox on everyone who wants to jeopardise my freedom.

You have totally ignored the fact that the study is based on estimates and guesswork and omits a lot of data which would turn the study upside down. Funny that whenever you respond to me you never actually answer the real questions that have been posed. I wonder why?

Oh and yes 1.5 million Brits have emigrated to Europe. Are they "Economic" immigrants? I don't think so. And have they all gone to the same country like what we have seen here? Well over a million people from mainly Poland, but also of course Bulgaria and Romania alone. But that is perfectly normal you will tell me? It is their "divine" right to be here in whatever numbers they wish, because at the end of the day we are all immigrants so stuff the obvious problems over population will cause and is causing!!! Seriously? Do you actually give a shit about this country? I doubt it by the sound of it. And why would Britain controlling its borders have an impact on where you want to visit in Europe? How does that work? What are you talking about? Why would that change? Do you think that Britain is unable to set up its own controls country to country? Seriously?

In Britain we have many French born people (Britain being the most popular destination for the French) as well as a lot of Italian, German, Spanish etc. But funny enough we don't have millions of people from each country and these people are not here for economic reasons which is as it should be. We share a very similar quality of life (wages, housing, benefits etc.) and so people are here for the right reason, not because they come from poor countries that offer them nothing. Funny enough it is these countries that we share are more of less even number coming in or out, or at least numbers that are not noticeable and Brits in Europe are certainly not putting wages down, taking jobs and houses etc. In fact many Brits in these countries have invested money and have helped create jobs for the local population. In Romania the minimal wage is 9 times less than here, if you can get a job that is and we wonder why they are here!!! It is not right and your arguments for it are just ridiculous and make no sense whatsoever.

We need skilled workers in Britain, not the huge numbers of unskilled who are putting wages down and are causing huge social problems. Yes, let in some where needed but unrestricted? How can that ever work? Please tell me. And just because somebody is a hard worker that is not a reason to overpopulate the country. Or is it??? You seem to think so.

Anyway, please explain to me how it has come to be that your study is nothing more than a made up report made up of guesswork and estimates, and why is it that is leaves out key information ie work based benefits? I have a feeling it may well be so that it pleases people like you but I don't expect you to admit that.....